2 00:00:31,410 --> 00:00:35,630 The suspect's going to be a skinny black male, wearing dark shorts, 3 00:00:35,630 --> 00:00:39,430 possibly using, like, a small Derringer-type pistol. 4 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:45,991 Very, very tragic. Very tragic. 5 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,197 I'm Pat McGuinness. I'll be 50 on Christmas Day. 6 00:00:58,740 --> 00:01:01,607 And I defend people charged with killing people. 7 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,902 James Stevens and his wife were at their local Ramada Inn. 8 00:01:14,210 --> 00:01:16,930 They went to a continental breakfast. 9 00:01:16,930 --> 00:01:21,610 As they left, they were walking down a breezeway in that hotel, 10 00:01:21,610 --> 00:01:26,912 and somebody shot and killed Mr Stevens' wife. 11 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:38,040 At that same time, Brenton Butler was at his home saying good morning, 12 00:01:38,041 --> 00:01:40,241 taking care of his dog, 13 00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:46,980 but those two events collided about two-and-a-half hours later. 14 00:01:46,980 --> 00:01:51,383 He was arrested by the police and taken to be viewed by Mr Stevens, 15 00:01:51,710 --> 00:01:55,658 and Mr Stevens identified him as the man who shot his wife. 16 00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:07,600 This entire case, everything important took place in two hours, 17 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,990 between 7 and 9 on a Sunday morning. 18 00:02:12,620 --> 00:02:16,880 And what the jury ultimately comes to believe about those two hours 19 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,589 is going to determine whether Brent goes to prison for life 20 00:02:19,590 --> 00:02:22,990 or is returned to his family. 21 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,360 On the morning of 8th May, I first read about the Brenton Butler case 22 00:03:05,361 --> 00:03:06,861 in the paper. 23 00:03:06,860 --> 00:03:14,360 The article said a 15-year-old black kid had shot and murdered a white tourist, 24 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,120 and that he had confessed. 25 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,030 If true, that appeared to be the end of the story. 26 00:03:20,030 --> 00:03:23,680 My immediate reaction was he had thrown his own life away, 27 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,013 as well as that of the tourist. 28 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,590 I had a chance later that morning to meet Brenton Butler for the first time. 29 00:03:32,590 --> 00:03:37,000 What he told me about the case made sense. 30 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,460 What he told me about how the detectives had treated him 31 00:03:39,461 --> 00:03:41,961 made me angry, 32 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:45,484 and as I learned more, I became increasingly angry. 33 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:56,170 The suspect's going to be a skinny black male, wearing dark shorts, 34 00:03:56,170 --> 00:03:58,809 unknown shirt, had on a hat. 35 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,280 Last seen on foot, running southbound, 36 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,171 possibly using like a small Derringer-type pistol. 37 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:13,918 And the latest update is a black male with a fish-like hat on, 38 00:04:13,919 --> 00:04:16,619 with a cloth build. 39 00:04:24,390 --> 00:04:25,610 OK, Officer Martin, I've asked you here today 40 00:04:25,611 --> 00:04:27,911 because you've been listed by the State 41 00:04:27,910 --> 00:04:31,000 as a potential witness in the cases pending against Brenton Butler. 42 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,000 Specifically, Mr Butler's been charged with responsibility 43 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,700 for the death of Mary Anne Stevens on or about 7th May of 2000. 44 00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:39,340 I'm Ann Finnell. 45 00:04:39,340 --> 00:04:40,740 I'm an attorney with the Public Defender's Office 46 00:04:40,741 --> 00:04:43,741 in Jacksonville, Florida, 47 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:46,520 and I've worked here for almost 23 years. 48 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,450 The canine officer, we were talking about how little we had, 49 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:52,610 just a black male in the area. 50 00:04:52,610 --> 00:04:56,310 And I was actually facing north, and he was facing south, 51 00:04:56,310 --> 00:04:59,360 and he said, "Well, there's a young black male right there, 52 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,470 "it could be him, it could be anybody". 53 00:05:01,470 --> 00:05:05,690 I said, "Well, OK, I'll go talk to him," you know? 54 00:05:05,690 --> 00:05:08,080 Being that we didn't have much to go on, I said, "Well, 55 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:09,720 "I'll go round there and talk to him". 56 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,350 So, I pulled out and drove over to him. 57 00:05:12,350 --> 00:05:15,070 I told him that we had a murder up the street, 58 00:05:15,070 --> 00:05:17,460 that the police were looking for anybody that may be able to help us 59 00:05:17,460 --> 00:05:19,710 solve it, or anybody who could have seen anything. 60 00:05:19,710 --> 00:05:24,070 I asked him if he lived in the area, he said, yes, he lived nearby. 61 00:05:24,070 --> 00:05:26,880 I said, "Well, would you mind coming up here and talking 62 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,580 "to the detectives for a minute and telling them if you'd seen anything". 63 00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:31,990 He goes, "No, not at all". 64 00:05:31,990 --> 00:05:34,240 When you get to the hotel, where do you park? 65 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,300 I parked almost in that ditch, somewhere along in here. 66 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:40,990 I was half hanging in and out of it. 67 00:05:40,990 --> 00:05:43,140 I remember having to jump across that ditch. 68 00:05:43,140 --> 00:05:45,820 OK, so then what happens? 69 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:48,910 They went and talked amongst themselves for a minute or two 70 00:05:48,910 --> 00:05:52,947 and went and got the victim's husband, 71 00:05:52,947 --> 00:05:58,007 and he indicated that Brenton Butler was the person who shot his wife. 72 00:05:58,007 --> 00:06:01,667 So he's about 50 feet away and he says, "That's the guy"? 73 00:06:01,667 --> 00:06:06,447 Right. And we were all, well, kind of taken aback. 74 00:06:06,447 --> 00:06:09,727 So, we had him come over even closer almost to the car at that time, 75 00:06:09,727 --> 00:06:12,777 and he looked again and said, "Yeah, that's the guy". 76 00:06:12,777 --> 00:06:16,897 Officer Martin came in and candidly admitted that the only reason 77 00:06:16,897 --> 00:06:20,977 Brenton Butler was even stopped that morning was 78 00:06:20,977 --> 00:06:25,287 because he happened to be a black male walking in the neighbourhood. 79 00:06:25,287 --> 00:06:27,307 Now, think about that. 80 00:06:27,307 --> 00:06:30,777 That means for every African-American in Jacksonville, Florida, 81 00:06:30,777 --> 00:06:33,307 if they happen to be walking down the street, 82 00:06:33,307 --> 00:06:37,527 lawfully going about their own business, not doing anything wrong, 83 00:06:37,527 --> 00:06:43,857 that they're subject to being stopped and asked to get in a police car 84 00:06:43,857 --> 00:06:46,724 and driven away from what they're doing... 85 00:06:48,447 --> 00:06:52,717 ...and subject to being shown to the victim of a crime, 86 00:06:52,717 --> 00:06:54,527 with the possibility that that victim 87 00:06:54,528 --> 00:06:59,128 would identify them under the most suggestive of circumstances, 88 00:06:59,227 --> 00:07:03,407 that being that they happen to be sitting in the back seat of a police car. 89 00:07:03,407 --> 00:07:05,027 And most victims would think 90 00:07:05,028 --> 00:07:08,128 that they wouldn't be sitting in the back seat of a police car 91 00:07:08,227 --> 00:07:11,277 unless they'd done something wrong, right? 92 00:07:11,277 --> 00:07:15,077 So that's where we are today in Jacksonville, Florida. 93 00:07:15,077 --> 00:07:23,007 And I personally find that to be disgusting and reprehensible. 94 00:08:07,627 --> 00:08:09,317 OK, the case set for today 95 00:08:09,317 --> 00:08:12,407 is the State of Florida versus Brenton Leonard Butler. 96 00:08:12,407 --> 00:08:15,637 Is the State now ready to proceed with its opening statement? 97 00:08:15,637 --> 00:08:18,219 - Yes, Your Honour. - OK, Miss Stair, you may proceed. 98 00:08:21,217 --> 00:08:23,987 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. May it please the court? -Certainly. 99 00:08:23,987 --> 00:08:29,707 On May 7th of this year, the defendant, Brenton Butler, 100 00:08:29,707 --> 00:08:32,377 approached Mary Anne and James Stevens 101 00:08:32,377 --> 00:08:33,967 at the Ramada Inn 102 00:08:33,967 --> 00:08:36,967 and he demanded Mrs Stevens' purse. 103 00:08:36,967 --> 00:08:39,407 Before she had a chance to comply, 104 00:08:39,407 --> 00:08:42,737 he raised a gun to her face and fired, 105 00:08:42,737 --> 00:08:46,017 hitting Mrs Stevens at the bridge of her nose, killing her. 106 00:08:46,017 --> 00:08:49,577 The evidence that you will hear 107 00:08:49,577 --> 00:08:53,937 that proves the defendant is the one who committed this crime 108 00:08:53,937 --> 00:08:58,487 really comes down to two things. First, Mr Stevens, 109 00:08:58,487 --> 00:09:03,127 the only eyewitness to the actual shooting, 110 00:09:03,127 --> 00:09:07,537 positively identified the defendant as the person 111 00:09:07,537 --> 00:09:09,077 who did this to his wife 112 00:09:09,077 --> 00:09:10,957 and he will come here in court 113 00:09:10,957 --> 00:09:14,567 and he will positively identify the defendant in court. 114 00:09:14,567 --> 00:09:19,067 The second piece of evidence is that the defendant 115 00:09:19,067 --> 00:09:21,877 gave a statement to the police 116 00:09:21,877 --> 00:09:24,407 on the afternoon of the shooting, 117 00:09:24,407 --> 00:09:26,762 admitting to the shooting. 118 00:09:33,647 --> 00:09:34,677 That's great. 119 00:09:34,677 --> 00:09:36,697 - May it please the court? - Sure. 120 00:09:36,697 --> 00:09:40,315 Counsel for the State. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 121 00:09:42,227 --> 00:09:45,267 The evidence in this case will show you that Brenton Butler 122 00:09:45,267 --> 00:09:51,507 did not commit this homicide and, in fact, could not have killed 123 00:09:51,507 --> 00:09:53,947 Mrs Stevens, the morning of May 7th. 124 00:09:53,947 --> 00:09:59,377 At 12 noon, you will hear that Detectives Williams and Darnell 125 00:09:59,377 --> 00:10:02,807 began their questioning of Brenton Butler. 126 00:10:02,807 --> 00:10:07,067 They asked Brenton Butler where he was Saturday night 127 00:10:07,067 --> 00:10:10,487 and Sunday morning. "On Sunday morning, I woke up, 128 00:10:10,487 --> 00:10:13,167 "I took a shower, I brushed my teeth, 129 00:10:13,167 --> 00:10:14,947 "I saw my mum and my little brother. 130 00:10:14,947 --> 00:10:18,367 "I took care of my dog and, a little after nine, 131 00:10:18,367 --> 00:10:23,147 "I left to go to Blockbuster, to fill out a job application". 132 00:10:23,147 --> 00:10:25,027 And the detectives told him, 133 00:10:25,027 --> 00:10:29,427 "You're lying! We've got an eyewitness". 134 00:10:29,427 --> 00:10:34,957 Detective Glover arrived at the Homicide Office before 6:00pm 135 00:10:34,957 --> 00:10:36,087 and he will tell you, 136 00:10:36,087 --> 00:10:42,747 he will tell you, that he was told that Brenton Butler 137 00:10:42,747 --> 00:10:48,417 was ready to confess. Ready to confess. 138 00:10:48,417 --> 00:10:51,277 Here is a boy who has said absolutely nothing but, 139 00:10:51,277 --> 00:10:53,667 "It's not me, I didn't do this". 140 00:10:53,667 --> 00:10:58,217 And at 5:56, you'll learn that Detective Glover 141 00:10:58,217 --> 00:11:02,717 entered the interview room alone to talk to Brenton Butler. 142 00:11:02,717 --> 00:11:06,837 And Detective Glover said, "You're not innocent. 143 00:11:06,837 --> 00:11:09,367 "You're not innocent. We've got an eyewitness. 144 00:11:09,367 --> 00:11:12,894 "It's niggers like you that make me mad these days". 145 00:11:14,437 --> 00:11:18,557 And Detective Glover said, "You know, if I had done this, 146 00:11:18,557 --> 00:11:21,797 "I'd have thrown that purse and gun in the woods. 147 00:11:21,797 --> 00:11:23,717 "Isn't that what you did? 148 00:11:23,717 --> 00:11:26,947 "Didn't you throw that gun and that purse in the woods?" 149 00:11:26,947 --> 00:11:31,637 And Detective Glover takes Brenton Butler, alone, 150 00:11:31,637 --> 00:11:38,297 hanging on to Brenton Butler's belly belt, as Brenton is handcuffed, 151 00:11:38,297 --> 00:11:43,027 into the woods, deep into the woods. 152 00:11:43,027 --> 00:11:48,467 And in the middle of the woods, in that semi-darkness 153 00:11:48,467 --> 00:11:52,917 right before it gets totally dark, ladies and gentlemen, 154 00:11:52,917 --> 00:11:57,277 Detective Glover hit him in the stomach, 155 00:11:57,277 --> 00:12:02,112 not once, but twice, and hit him in his face. 156 00:12:16,637 --> 00:12:20,387 - Could you state your name, please? - James Marion Stevens. 157 00:12:20,387 --> 00:12:27,805 Now, the Stevens were in 142. That's on this side, right here. 158 00:12:30,847 --> 00:12:33,327 OK, so, 142. 159 00:12:34,777 --> 00:12:36,665 Now, this is where they turned. 160 00:12:38,437 --> 00:12:43,127 It's about 7:30 in the morning. They've got muffins, coffee, paper. 161 00:12:43,127 --> 00:12:45,800 They're talking to each other as they walk. 162 00:12:46,067 --> 00:12:48,577 After you finished breakfast, did you see anyone 163 00:12:48,578 --> 00:12:52,778 on the way back to your room? -Yes, ma'am. 164 00:12:52,877 --> 00:12:58,317 I saw a black gentleman walking down the sidewalk ahead of me, 165 00:12:58,317 --> 00:13:01,037 maybe 100 to 150 feet. 166 00:13:01,037 --> 00:13:06,747 He had on short pants that went right below the knees 167 00:13:06,747 --> 00:13:08,297 and a dark shirt. 168 00:13:08,297 --> 00:13:12,427 Plus, he was wearing a hat with a narrow brim. 169 00:13:12,427 --> 00:13:15,747 We were proceeding down, talking. 170 00:13:15,747 --> 00:13:17,767 All this sudden, there was somebody 171 00:13:17,767 --> 00:13:24,607 in my wife's face and my face and said, "Give me your pocketbook". 172 00:13:24,607 --> 00:13:28,737 She first said, "Oh!", like that, and she started to drop 173 00:13:28,737 --> 00:13:32,577 the pocketbook off her shoulder and her arm to give it to him. 174 00:13:32,577 --> 00:13:36,517 So they looked up and then turned and wheeled. 175 00:13:36,517 --> 00:13:39,237 He thought the man right handed, which makes sense, 176 00:13:39,237 --> 00:13:41,023 because the bullet entered here. 177 00:13:42,147 --> 00:13:49,147 So... turn with your right hand. OK, all right. Turn. 178 00:13:50,437 --> 00:13:53,964 The gun is less than 18 inches from her face. 179 00:13:56,157 --> 00:13:58,927 He says, "Give me the purse," or, "Give me the wallet". 180 00:13:58,927 --> 00:14:00,797 There's some conflict about that. 181 00:14:00,797 --> 00:14:07,317 She starts to take the purse off. Before she can do it, he fires. 182 00:14:07,317 --> 00:14:13,037 She's falling back. -How close was he to you? 183 00:14:13,037 --> 00:14:14,957 Two and a half, three feet. 184 00:14:14,957 --> 00:14:17,727 What part of his body were you looking at? 185 00:14:17,727 --> 00:14:19,087 I was looking at his face. 186 00:14:19,087 --> 00:14:23,257 But you indicated you also saw his gun. 187 00:14:23,257 --> 00:14:28,317 Yes, after he told her to give him her pocketbook, 188 00:14:28,317 --> 00:14:32,207 he raised the pistol and shot her, right in here. 189 00:14:32,207 --> 00:14:35,677 And you're indicating over your nose area. 190 00:14:35,677 --> 00:14:38,077 Well, it's in the bridge, right there. -OK. 191 00:14:38,077 --> 00:14:40,787 You're indicating 192 00:14:40,787 --> 00:14:44,677 on the right side, the bridge of the nose, is that correct? -Yes. -OK. 193 00:14:44,677 --> 00:14:49,597 Now... -Horseshi... No, not the right side. 194 00:14:49,597 --> 00:14:52,697 I'm showing you the wrong side. It was on this side. 195 00:14:52,737 --> 00:14:55,787 OK. But you're indicating the bridge area. 196 00:14:55,787 --> 00:14:58,837 The bridge area, yes. -OK. Now, the person that did this 197 00:14:58,837 --> 00:15:03,427 on May 7th, that confronted you and your wife and shot your wife, 198 00:15:03,427 --> 00:15:06,427 do you see this person in the courtroom today? -Yes, ma'am. 199 00:15:06,427 --> 00:15:09,197 Could you identify where he is sitting and what he's wearing? 200 00:15:09,197 --> 00:15:13,227 He's sitting right below Miss Nell, there. He has a red shirt on. 201 00:15:13,227 --> 00:15:18,057 I can't see his pants down below the table. And he has on glasses. 202 00:15:18,057 --> 00:15:21,247 Your Honour, if the record could reflect that the witness 203 00:15:21,247 --> 00:15:22,887 has identified the defendant. 204 00:15:22,887 --> 00:15:24,617 JUDGE: It shall reflect that. 205 00:15:24,617 --> 00:15:27,617 Is there any doubt in your mind that this is the person 206 00:15:27,617 --> 00:15:30,107 that you saw in front of you on May 7th 207 00:15:30,107 --> 00:15:31,647 pull a gun and shoot your wife? 208 00:15:31,647 --> 00:15:33,148 There's no doubt, in my mind. 209 00:15:34,837 --> 00:15:37,417 She fell almost exactly here. 210 00:15:37,417 --> 00:15:41,727 Now, this is, what? 47 feet to here? 211 00:15:41,727 --> 00:15:45,807 Apparently, by the time they made it from there to here, 212 00:15:45,807 --> 00:15:47,357 Mr Stevens believes 213 00:15:47,357 --> 00:15:50,357 the man had made it back 100 feet or so. 214 00:15:50,357 --> 00:15:53,167 Start walking towards me from that point. 215 00:15:56,587 --> 00:15:58,373 That's 150. 216 00:16:00,577 --> 00:16:01,839 OK, stop. 217 00:16:05,727 --> 00:16:09,477 So, he's got to make it from there to here in the time 218 00:16:09,477 --> 00:16:12,253 they make it to here... 219 00:16:14,407 --> 00:16:15,477 ...if that's the guy. 220 00:16:15,477 --> 00:16:20,312 All of a sudden, the man was right in front of you? -Correct. 221 00:16:22,327 --> 00:16:25,842 - Two and a half feet away? - Two and a half to three feet. 222 00:16:27,107 --> 00:16:29,167 - No warning? - No warning. 223 00:16:29,167 --> 00:16:32,307 And by that, I mean, you didn't hear the sound of feet 224 00:16:32,307 --> 00:16:35,127 running down that concrete sidewalk? -No, I did not. 225 00:16:35,127 --> 00:16:37,887 You didn't hear the sound of feet running on the grass 226 00:16:37,887 --> 00:16:40,227 next to the concrete sidewalk? -No, I did not. 227 00:16:40,227 --> 00:16:43,597 You didn't perceive any quick movement in front of your eyes? 228 00:16:43,598 --> 00:16:46,698 Not till he was there. 229 00:16:46,697 --> 00:16:47,967 And you saw the gun? 230 00:16:47,967 --> 00:16:50,407 Yes, I did. It was raised. 231 00:16:50,407 --> 00:16:52,377 - A Derringer-type gun? - Correct. 232 00:16:52,377 --> 00:16:54,247 Over-under barrel? 233 00:16:54,247 --> 00:16:57,535 Yes, stack barrel or stack... whatever they call them. 234 00:16:59,307 --> 00:17:03,527 Mr Stevens, from the time the man appeared suddenly in front of 235 00:17:03,527 --> 00:17:07,327 you and your wife, to the time he grabbed the pocketbook and ran - 236 00:17:07,327 --> 00:17:09,807 four to five seconds? 237 00:17:09,807 --> 00:17:12,057 Yes, in the neighbourhood of four to five. 238 00:17:12,057 --> 00:17:15,163 That's what's in the deposition. -Four to five seconds. -Yes. 239 00:17:16,187 --> 00:17:22,847 1,001, 1,002, 1,003, 1,004, 1,005. 240 00:17:22,847 --> 00:17:26,135 Approximately that, yes. -That's all the time. -That's correct. 241 00:17:27,107 --> 00:17:33,207 Now... the shirt that the man had on. 242 00:17:33,207 --> 00:17:36,857 You did not see a logo on the shirt, did you, sir? -No, ma'am. 243 00:17:36,857 --> 00:17:39,677 We're going to look at the physical evidence, 244 00:17:39,677 --> 00:17:42,437 which will consist of what they took off our client - 245 00:17:42,437 --> 00:17:45,017 his clothes, his shoes, his underwear - 246 00:17:45,017 --> 00:17:48,157 not that that's any major concern. 247 00:17:48,157 --> 00:17:52,847 The items collected at the crime scene - 248 00:17:52,847 --> 00:17:56,078 his glasses, fragments, a comb. 249 00:18:12,677 --> 00:18:15,544 This is submission number one, submission number two. 250 00:19:14,877 --> 00:19:18,627 Mr Stevens, let me show you a photograph 251 00:19:18,627 --> 00:19:21,347 that has been marked, "Defendant's Exhibit D". 252 00:19:21,347 --> 00:19:22,621 Yes, ma'am. 253 00:19:24,347 --> 00:19:26,556 You don't recognise that, do you, sir? 254 00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:30,446 I'll tell you where it was at, but I did not look at it. 255 00:19:30,446 --> 00:19:35,136 But I told you that shirt was a dark shirt that he had on, 256 00:19:35,136 --> 00:19:36,966 and that's the way I identified it. 257 00:19:36,966 --> 00:19:42,086 - Mr Stevens... - That was on the front of his shirt. 258 00:19:44,606 --> 00:19:46,716 You're saying that this was... 259 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:49,025 What was on the front of his shirt, Mr Stevens? 260 00:19:50,136 --> 00:19:52,718 A logo, but I told you there was a logo. 261 00:19:53,706 --> 00:19:58,346 Mr Stevens, are you saying today that there was a logo 262 00:19:58,346 --> 00:20:02,186 on the front of the shirt worn by the assailant? 263 00:20:02,186 --> 00:20:04,346 I told you, it was on his back. 264 00:20:04,346 --> 00:20:06,316 My question today is, 265 00:20:06,316 --> 00:20:10,016 are you saying today that there was a logo 266 00:20:10,016 --> 00:20:13,716 on the shirt worn by the assailant? 267 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:16,716 No, not the original assailant. 268 00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:18,216 Of the original assailant, 269 00:20:18,216 --> 00:20:21,826 there was not a logo on the front of his shirt. 270 00:20:21,826 --> 00:20:24,786 I believe that, later, 271 00:20:24,786 --> 00:20:27,786 I told you when we were taking the deposition, 272 00:20:27,786 --> 00:20:30,786 that I saw a logo on this individual, 273 00:20:30,786 --> 00:20:34,766 and it was on his back, because I remembered it when he was turning. 274 00:20:34,766 --> 00:20:39,316 - All right, sir. - There's not any variation of it, 275 00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:43,346 but he had time after an hour, two hours, to change clothes. 276 00:20:43,346 --> 00:20:48,966 So, there was no logo on the shirt you saw worn by the assailant, 277 00:20:48,966 --> 00:20:52,346 is that correct? -At first. 278 00:20:52,346 --> 00:20:53,756 No, sir, not at first. 279 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:57,456 I didn't want to be terribly hard on the man, because, frankly, 280 00:20:57,456 --> 00:21:00,216 I think the jury feels like he's been through enough, 281 00:21:00,216 --> 00:21:03,966 but at the same time, there were certain points that I had to establish. 282 00:21:03,966 --> 00:21:06,976 I wanted to do that in a nice way and it would have been nicer 283 00:21:06,976 --> 00:21:09,316 if he hadn't thrown that shirt logo on me. 284 00:21:09,316 --> 00:21:12,226 It kind of surprised me, when, all of a sudden, 285 00:21:12,226 --> 00:21:14,990 he started talking about having seen a shirt logo. 286 00:21:16,906 --> 00:21:21,456 But I think we got out what we needed to get out from Mr Stevens. 287 00:21:21,456 --> 00:21:26,616 Isn't a true, sir, that you do not recall giving a description 288 00:21:26,616 --> 00:21:30,086 of the assailant to a uniformed patrol officer, 289 00:21:30,086 --> 00:21:32,566 who arrived shortly after the incident? 290 00:21:32,566 --> 00:21:36,456 I did not testify to that in the deposition, no. 291 00:21:36,456 --> 00:21:39,736 - And isn't it true... - I told you... Excuse me. 292 00:21:39,736 --> 00:21:43,346 Isn't it true, sir, that you do not recall telling that first officer 293 00:21:43,346 --> 00:21:48,876 who talked to you that the assailant was a black man with skinny build, 294 00:21:48,876 --> 00:21:53,286 wearing dark shorts, an unknown colour shirt and a hat 295 00:21:53,286 --> 00:21:55,586 and carrying a Derringer-style pistol? 296 00:21:55,586 --> 00:21:57,266 I can't remember what I told him, 297 00:21:57,266 --> 00:21:59,382 because I don't remember talking to him. 298 00:22:09,926 --> 00:22:14,096 This trip to the Butlers is just to clear up 299 00:22:14,096 --> 00:22:19,066 some final questions I have about aspects of their testimony. 300 00:22:19,066 --> 00:22:25,346 This store over here is probably the only place between the motel 301 00:22:25,346 --> 00:22:28,586 and Brent's house, on the way to Blockbusters. 302 00:22:28,586 --> 00:22:34,309 As far as I know, the police have never yet checked it. 303 00:22:37,026 --> 00:22:41,336 The police sent dive teams on a couple of occasions... 304 00:22:41,336 --> 00:22:44,624 to check out that pond. Of course, there was no gun. 305 00:22:47,386 --> 00:22:50,616 But they never bothered to knock on a single neighbour's door, 306 00:22:50,616 --> 00:22:54,646 to see if anybody had seen him leaving the house 307 00:22:54,646 --> 00:22:57,228 between seven and eight in the morning. 308 00:22:58,356 --> 00:23:01,405 There are so many things they haven't checked in this case. 309 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:08,856 The Sunday morning that your brother got arrested... -Yes, sir. 310 00:23:08,856 --> 00:23:12,136 Do you know about what time you got up that morning? 311 00:23:12,136 --> 00:23:14,896 - Around 7:30. - OK. 312 00:23:14,896 --> 00:23:18,506 Now, as I understand it, when you woke up, 313 00:23:18,506 --> 00:23:22,216 you heard music from Brent's room, is that right? -Yes, sir. 314 00:23:22,216 --> 00:23:27,276 Did you see him come out of his room dressed? -Yes. 315 00:23:27,276 --> 00:23:34,116 I think you said he had a navy blue and lilac shirt and dark blue polo shorts. 316 00:23:34,116 --> 00:23:39,936 What's lilac? -I didn't say that. I did not say that. -OK, well... 317 00:23:39,936 --> 00:23:43,736 - I said a navy blue Nautica shirt. - Nautica. 318 00:23:45,656 --> 00:23:46,686 OK. 319 00:23:46,686 --> 00:23:50,766 And when you woke up, Melissa was already out getting the coffee 320 00:23:50,766 --> 00:23:52,085 and so on? -Right. 321 00:23:53,766 --> 00:23:55,686 - You had your coffee in your room? - Yes. 322 00:23:55,686 --> 00:23:57,836 You guys talk for a while? -Yes. 323 00:23:57,836 --> 00:24:00,276 Do you recall what you chatted about? 324 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:02,576 If you don't, that's fine, but if you do... 325 00:24:02,576 --> 00:24:05,056 Not anything very significant. 326 00:24:05,056 --> 00:24:07,776 You didn't see Brent? -I didn't, no. 327 00:24:07,776 --> 00:24:11,906 - Did you hear him? - I didn't hear him. 328 00:24:11,906 --> 00:24:14,716 I heard music and bumping 329 00:24:14,716 --> 00:24:17,059 coming from the room. 330 00:24:19,686 --> 00:24:20,716 OK. 331 00:24:20,716 --> 00:24:24,376 So, it's almost seven by the time you even check on the boys? 332 00:24:24,376 --> 00:24:26,106 Right, right. 333 00:24:26,106 --> 00:24:27,846 You go out and do your devotional, 334 00:24:27,846 --> 00:24:31,126 spend maybe 20 minutes out there? -Correct. 335 00:24:31,126 --> 00:24:33,516 Come back here. Now, he hasn't showered yet. 336 00:24:33,516 --> 00:24:36,046 - He's just still at the sink. - Still in his boxers, 337 00:24:36,046 --> 00:24:38,246 because I remember he had on plaid boxers. 338 00:24:38,246 --> 00:24:41,716 - So, it's maybe around 7:20, then? - Yeah, could have been, yeah. 339 00:24:41,716 --> 00:24:42,796 All right. 340 00:24:42,796 --> 00:24:46,736 There was nothing unusual about his demeanour that day? 341 00:24:46,736 --> 00:24:50,346 He wasn't sweaty or excited or puffing or anything like that? -No. 342 00:24:50,346 --> 00:24:53,156 Just the same old Brent. Quiet. 343 00:24:54,886 --> 00:25:00,566 You frequently go into his room to clean it and so on? 344 00:25:00,566 --> 00:25:03,796 - You've never seen a gun in there? - No. 345 00:25:03,796 --> 00:25:06,046 You've never seen ammunition in there? -No. 346 00:25:06,046 --> 00:25:08,536 - Never seen a fisherman-type hat? - No. 347 00:25:08,536 --> 00:25:12,656 The only hats that you know he's got are these two and the skullcap? -Yes. 348 00:25:12,656 --> 00:25:17,856 And I talked some about the order of witnesses yesterday. 349 00:25:17,856 --> 00:25:22,884 We may end with y'all, with Melissa being the last witness... 350 00:25:25,216 --> 00:25:28,356 ...for a variety of reasons. I think you guys tell a strong, 351 00:25:28,356 --> 00:25:31,506 consistent story about where your son was at the time. 352 00:25:31,506 --> 00:25:37,216 And of the four of you - no offence, Andre - I think she's cuter 353 00:25:37,216 --> 00:25:39,326 than you are and makes a better witness. 354 00:25:39,326 --> 00:25:42,326 [SHE LAUGHS] 355 00:25:42,326 --> 00:25:43,406 All right? 356 00:25:43,406 --> 00:25:50,536 And I think a jury hearing a momma talk about her boy 357 00:25:50,536 --> 00:25:53,676 and since she actually saw him, like, four separate times, 358 00:25:53,676 --> 00:25:55,406 she's kind of a critical witness. 359 00:25:55,406 --> 00:26:00,014 Anyway, that's all the news that fits the print tonight. 360 00:26:03,476 --> 00:26:09,846 We pray and thank you for giving the defence attorney wisdom from on high. 361 00:26:09,846 --> 00:26:13,406 But then you are the great attorney. 362 00:26:13,406 --> 00:26:16,086 We trust in your holy name. 363 00:26:16,086 --> 00:26:19,408 Bless this family. Amen. ALL: Amen. 364 00:26:36,286 --> 00:26:39,706 - Could you state your name, please? - James H. Williams. 365 00:26:39,706 --> 00:26:42,706 - And where are you employed? - Jackson's Sheriff's Office. 366 00:26:42,706 --> 00:26:46,226 Within homicide, are you assigned to any particular group? 367 00:26:46,226 --> 00:26:49,596 Yes, ma'am. I'm assigned Homicide Team Three. 368 00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:51,946 And who else is in Team Three? 369 00:26:51,946 --> 00:26:56,816 Our sergeant is Sergeant Joiner. My partner is Detective Darnell. 370 00:26:56,816 --> 00:26:59,726 Detective Beakowski and Detective Eason. 371 00:26:59,726 --> 00:27:03,146 Going back to May 7th of this year, 372 00:27:03,146 --> 00:27:06,426 were you actually there when Mr Stevens was first brought out? 373 00:27:06,426 --> 00:27:11,026 I was standing at the car, on Richard Street, with Officer Martin and Brenton. 374 00:27:11,026 --> 00:27:13,366 OK. And tell us about that. 375 00:27:13,366 --> 00:27:15,426 Mr Stevens walked up, looked at him 376 00:27:15,426 --> 00:27:18,476 and said, "That's him". But he said, "I want a closer look". 377 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:21,905 Mr Stevens asked if he could look closer, which I allowed him to do. 378 00:27:21,905 --> 00:27:25,605 I actually opened up the passenger side door of the police car, 379 00:27:25,605 --> 00:27:29,775 and Mr Stevens sat down in the car and he looked at Brenton and said, 380 00:27:29,775 --> 00:27:31,745 "That's him". I asked him, I said, 381 00:27:31,745 --> 00:27:35,685 "Are you absolutely positive that this is the person that shot your wife?" 382 00:27:35,685 --> 00:27:39,155 And his statement was, "I wouldn't send an innocent man to jail". 383 00:27:39,155 --> 00:27:42,715 You were the lead detective in the case? -Yes, sir, that's correct. 384 00:27:42,715 --> 00:27:48,675 So the overall responsibility for the investigation would fall to you, 385 00:27:48,675 --> 00:27:50,355 is that right? -Yes, sir, it should. 386 00:27:50,355 --> 00:27:54,485 How many witnesses did you interview yourself in this investigation? 387 00:27:59,315 --> 00:28:02,925 I spoke to a Cater Donaldson for a few minutes. 388 00:28:02,925 --> 00:28:04,935 Did you do a thorough interview of her? 389 00:28:04,935 --> 00:28:07,655 No, sir, she was too emotional to talk to at the time. 390 00:28:07,655 --> 00:28:10,755 Did you do a thorough interview of Mr Stevens? 391 00:28:10,755 --> 00:28:12,955 - No, sir, I did not. - OK. 392 00:28:12,955 --> 00:28:17,735 Who did you do thorough interviews of? -Brenton Butler. -OK. 393 00:28:17,735 --> 00:28:18,815 Anybody else? 394 00:28:22,235 --> 00:28:23,265 No, sir. 395 00:28:23,265 --> 00:28:26,175 So, you have this young fellow in there. 396 00:28:26,175 --> 00:28:30,725 He was put in a locked room, right? -Yes, sir. -OK. 397 00:28:30,725 --> 00:28:33,353 - Sound-resistant locked room, right? - Yes, sir. 398 00:28:39,955 --> 00:28:42,958 [FRIENDLY CHATTER] 399 00:28:45,065 --> 00:28:47,455 Is it OK to take a photograph of the room? 400 00:28:47,455 --> 00:28:49,425 - There's nobody in there, is there? - No. 401 00:28:49,425 --> 00:28:54,772 He's a serious guy. He actually married a friend of mine. -Really? 402 00:28:56,315 --> 00:28:57,452 Let's see... 403 00:29:08,835 --> 00:29:09,865 Just measuring it. 404 00:29:09,865 --> 00:29:10,991 It's about ten by ten. 405 00:29:23,645 --> 00:29:25,615 So you have this young fellow in there 406 00:29:25,615 --> 00:29:28,475 and you're asking him questions, and he's telling you, 407 00:29:28,475 --> 00:29:33,535 "I was home and I had yoghurt and did these things", right? 408 00:29:33,535 --> 00:29:34,615 Yes, sir. 409 00:29:36,445 --> 00:29:38,175 Wouldn't it be relatively simple 410 00:29:38,175 --> 00:29:41,087 to go out and ask his parents, was he home? 411 00:29:43,235 --> 00:29:46,095 Yes, sir. -Did you do that? -No, I didn't. 412 00:29:46,095 --> 00:29:50,745 Well, you do a thorough, competent, meticulous investigation, right? 413 00:29:50,745 --> 00:29:53,275 Objection, Your Honour. That's argumentative 414 00:29:53,275 --> 00:29:55,945 and absolutely has no relevance. 415 00:29:55,945 --> 00:29:58,895 Overruled. You can have some leeway. -Is that right, sir? 416 00:29:58,895 --> 00:29:59,975 I try to, yes, sir. 417 00:29:59,975 --> 00:30:05,175 Wouldn't it be thorough and competent and meticulous 418 00:30:05,175 --> 00:30:08,695 to just drive out there and pick up the phone and say, 419 00:30:08,695 --> 00:30:14,605 "Can you tell me what your son's activities were today? 420 00:30:14,605 --> 00:30:17,472 "If you saw him, when you saw him. What was he wearing?" 421 00:30:19,145 --> 00:30:22,995 Could you have done that? -Yes, sir, I could have. -Why didn't you? 422 00:30:22,995 --> 00:30:28,105 Well, I was in the process of interviewing him. I had positive ID. 423 00:30:28,105 --> 00:30:32,175 And I had parents that told two detectives that were on my team 424 00:30:32,175 --> 00:30:37,715 that they had seen their son a few... 30 minutes prior to them arriving. 425 00:30:37,715 --> 00:30:41,075 He had, he was in our custody at that time. And the parents... 426 00:30:41,076 --> 00:30:42,676 Wait here. I'm sorry. 427 00:30:42,775 --> 00:30:44,135 JUDGE: Let him go ahead. 428 00:30:44,135 --> 00:30:47,365 And the parents had also said it wasn't unusual for Brenton to leave 429 00:30:47,365 --> 00:30:50,185 early in the morning without them seeing him. 430 00:30:50,185 --> 00:30:52,715 You knew he didn't have a gun. 431 00:30:52,715 --> 00:30:54,825 You knew he didn't have a purse. 432 00:30:54,825 --> 00:30:57,115 You knew he didn't have any money. 433 00:30:57,115 --> 00:30:59,605 You knew he had a fisherman's hat, right? 434 00:30:59,605 --> 00:31:01,755 That's all correct. -OK. 435 00:31:03,825 --> 00:31:07,715 Did you ask Brent, "Can I go search your house, your room"? 436 00:31:07,715 --> 00:31:10,855 No sir, I did not. -Did you get a search warrant for his house? 437 00:31:10,855 --> 00:31:12,585 No, sir, I did not. 438 00:31:12,585 --> 00:31:14,915 You wanted to find a gun and a purse and bloody clothes 439 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:17,316 and everything else, right? 440 00:31:17,415 --> 00:31:19,765 Yes, sir, that would have been nice. 441 00:31:19,765 --> 00:31:21,825 So why not get a search warrant? 442 00:31:21,825 --> 00:31:24,725 Well, we just said we can get a search warrant. -OK. 443 00:31:24,725 --> 00:31:27,625 Did you go out and knock on any of the neighbours' doors and say, 444 00:31:27,626 --> 00:31:30,026 "Excuse me, did you see 445 00:31:30,125 --> 00:31:33,085 "Brenton Butler outside of his house between seven and eight this morning, 446 00:31:33,086 --> 00:31:35,086 or six and eight?" 447 00:31:35,185 --> 00:31:37,385 No, sir, I did not. -OK. 448 00:31:37,385 --> 00:31:39,825 You didn't do that, May 7? -No, sir. 449 00:31:39,825 --> 00:31:42,032 Do you consider that thorough and competent? 450 00:31:44,515 --> 00:31:46,164 Perhaps I should have done, sir. 451 00:31:48,025 --> 00:31:53,985 If you don't have it organised and you can't immediately, 452 00:31:54,006 --> 00:31:58,006 what I call, discipline witness by punishing him 453 00:31:58,007 --> 00:32:01,807 or embarrassing him when he lies, 454 00:32:01,905 --> 00:32:06,685 then they feel free to lie or to change the story. 455 00:32:06,685 --> 00:32:12,025 If, on the other hand, he knows that every time he lies to me, 456 00:32:12,025 --> 00:32:16,905 I can turn and go, "On June 29, you were under oath". 457 00:32:16,905 --> 00:32:19,525 "At that time, you were asked these questions and gave these answers, 458 00:32:19,526 --> 00:32:21,026 "is that right?" 459 00:32:21,125 --> 00:32:25,105 "You knew what the truth was," and so on. 460 00:32:25,105 --> 00:32:28,715 That has, erm, 461 00:32:28,715 --> 00:32:33,635 a chastening effect on the witness. It's like, erm, 462 00:32:33,635 --> 00:32:37,075 if a dog wets your carpet, you don't discipline him, 463 00:32:37,076 --> 00:32:40,576 he'll continue to wet your carpet. 464 00:32:40,675 --> 00:32:45,405 If a witness lies to you and you don't discipline him or embarrass him, 465 00:32:45,405 --> 00:32:47,425 they'll continue to. 466 00:32:47,425 --> 00:32:50,845 If you smack the dog on the nose with a newspaper, 467 00:32:50,845 --> 00:32:52,955 pretty soon it won't wet your carpet. 468 00:32:52,955 --> 00:32:54,925 The same is true with witnesses. 469 00:32:54,925 --> 00:32:58,715 Did you tell Brenton Butler 470 00:32:58,715 --> 00:33:00,735 that you had sent policemen out to his house, 471 00:33:00,736 --> 00:33:02,936 and his parents had been told where he was? 472 00:33:03,035 --> 00:33:04,205 Yes, sir. As I say, 473 00:33:04,205 --> 00:33:08,465 the detectives went out to his house and spoke with his parents. 474 00:33:08,465 --> 00:33:12,175 Well, "spoke" and "tell" are different words. Do you recall which? 475 00:33:12,175 --> 00:33:15,075 No, sir, I don't recall which one was said. -Did you tell him 476 00:33:15,075 --> 00:33:17,655 his parents have been told he was down there? 477 00:33:17,655 --> 00:33:20,185 I told him his parents were... 478 00:33:20,185 --> 00:33:22,535 detectives had been out to his house. 479 00:33:22,535 --> 00:33:27,175 And that... the parents, the detectives had been at his house. 480 00:33:27,175 --> 00:33:28,725 I don't know what was said, 481 00:33:28,725 --> 00:33:31,205 I don't remember exactly what was said. 482 00:33:31,205 --> 00:33:35,005 Detectives had been out to his house, that's one thing I remember saying. 483 00:33:35,005 --> 00:33:37,205 As far as... how he took it, 484 00:33:37,205 --> 00:33:42,315 whether they were informed he was there or not, I don't know. 485 00:33:42,315 --> 00:33:46,205 He asked, "Have my parents come down yet?" I said, "No, they haven't. 486 00:33:46,205 --> 00:33:48,595 "But the detectives have been out to your house". 487 00:33:48,595 --> 00:33:54,315 On September 27, when you are under oath, 488 00:33:54,315 --> 00:33:58,625 knowing the matters you were being questioned about well in advance 489 00:33:58,625 --> 00:34:01,065 and giving the answer that you did, 490 00:34:01,065 --> 00:34:05,615 you were certainly trying to tell the truth at that time, right? -Yes, sir. 491 00:34:05,615 --> 00:34:08,095 And since then, 492 00:34:08,095 --> 00:34:12,455 you just don't recollect, or did you forget, or what happened? 493 00:34:12,455 --> 00:34:14,285 No, sir, I just, I don't remember 494 00:34:14,285 --> 00:34:17,805 exactly how that part of the conversation with Brenton went. 495 00:34:17,805 --> 00:34:20,475 That's what I said. 496 00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:23,205 So that part of the whole truth is lost to us, right? 497 00:34:24,885 --> 00:34:27,085 No, sir. I... I... 498 00:34:27,085 --> 00:34:29,925 Do you know how we can establish it? 499 00:34:29,926 --> 00:34:34,026 No, sir. -Then it's lost, isn't it? -If you think so, sir. 500 00:34:37,395 --> 00:34:40,675 Did you tell him that you would arrange for an attorney for him? 501 00:34:40,675 --> 00:34:43,495 I said we could see if we could make arrangements for that. 502 00:34:43,495 --> 00:34:46,445 OK. Did you tell him that you would arrange an attorney for him? 503 00:34:46,445 --> 00:34:49,305 I said we could make arrangements for that. -OK. 504 00:34:49,305 --> 00:34:51,745 Did you make the first arrangement? 505 00:34:51,745 --> 00:34:55,395 - No, sir, I did not. - Did you pick up the phone? 506 00:34:55,395 --> 00:34:56,475 No, sir. 507 00:34:56,475 --> 00:35:01,495 You just told the young man... 508 00:35:01,495 --> 00:35:05,475 at noon, he had a right to an attorney, right? 509 00:35:05,475 --> 00:35:09,275 Yes, sir. -And then you told him you had arranged for one, right? 510 00:35:09,275 --> 00:35:11,755 Yes, sir. -But you didn't? -That's correct. 511 00:35:11,755 --> 00:35:14,715 You didn't take the first step on making good on that promise? 512 00:35:14,715 --> 00:35:17,285 I didn't promise, sir, I just made a statement to him. 513 00:35:17,285 --> 00:35:19,635 And, no, I did not make a phone call. -OK. 514 00:35:19,635 --> 00:35:24,035 When you say, "We'll arrange an attorney for you," that's not a promise? 515 00:35:24,035 --> 00:35:27,365 I don't make promises to individuals I'm interviewing. 516 00:35:27,365 --> 00:35:31,165 I'm not sure I follow. If you make... if you say you're going to do something... 517 00:35:31,165 --> 00:35:33,405 Yes, sir, but it wasn't said, it wasn't 518 00:35:33,406 --> 00:35:37,206 brought across as something I promise you I'll do. 519 00:35:37,305 --> 00:35:40,775 It wasn't said, "I promise you I will go do something". 520 00:35:40,775 --> 00:35:43,545 So, you only do it if you promise? 521 00:35:43,545 --> 00:35:46,255 No, sir. You said, you brought the word up, "promise". 522 00:35:46,255 --> 00:35:49,025 - Well, you didn't do it, right? - That's correct, sir. 523 00:35:49,025 --> 00:35:52,305 Would you have done it if you'd said, "I promise"? 524 00:35:52,305 --> 00:35:54,842 Well, I would have decided, when it got to that point. 525 00:35:56,195 --> 00:35:59,475 You knew less than 100 yards from where you sat, 526 00:35:59,475 --> 00:36:02,765 there was a court room in operation with a public defender, right? 527 00:36:02,765 --> 00:36:08,245 Er, I'm, I'm not sure of the distance, but, sure, there was a public trial, 528 00:36:08,245 --> 00:36:11,772 court room, attorneys were there, by the jail. 529 00:36:13,445 --> 00:36:17,855 In retrospect, do you think perhaps 530 00:36:17,855 --> 00:36:21,515 you could have been more thorough and more competent in the investigation? 531 00:36:21,515 --> 00:36:24,985 Perhaps, sir, it's always good to self-judge yourself, 532 00:36:24,985 --> 00:36:27,465 to make sure you do a better job next time. 533 00:36:28,775 --> 00:36:30,185 Thank you, sir. 534 00:36:33,375 --> 00:36:36,695 I'm going to turn your attention to May 8th of this year. 535 00:36:36,695 --> 00:36:40,825 Did you find a purse during your morning walk? -Yes, ma'am, I did. 536 00:36:40,825 --> 00:36:42,465 And where did you find this purse? 537 00:36:42,465 --> 00:36:45,195 In the dumpster at 63rd Main at All Star. 538 00:36:46,455 --> 00:36:48,745 6:30 the next morning, 539 00:36:48,745 --> 00:36:56,155 Mr Stevens, who collects cans for part of his living, 540 00:36:56,155 --> 00:36:58,271 was travelling up this street. 541 00:36:59,485 --> 00:37:03,745 He found the purse in a dumpster outside an alternator shop, 542 00:37:03,745 --> 00:37:06,054 walked across the street and called the police. 543 00:37:08,105 --> 00:37:11,715 He found the woman's wallet and identification in it. 544 00:37:11,715 --> 00:37:14,557 He didn't know for sure whether there was money in there or not, 545 00:37:14,558 --> 00:37:17,558 but he didn't check thoroughly. 546 00:37:17,625 --> 00:37:22,688 It turned out there was close to $1,200 in the purse. 547 00:37:32,855 --> 00:37:36,052 They dump their trash, some of them, on the corner up here. 548 00:37:39,235 --> 00:37:43,877 And that dumpster there is where the purse was found. 549 00:37:53,815 --> 00:37:55,225 To put trash in... 550 00:37:57,845 --> 00:38:03,238 ...when it's empty, you'd have to lift those flaps and touch it... 551 00:38:05,345 --> 00:38:07,735 ...and probably leave fingerprints. 552 00:38:07,735 --> 00:38:09,335 But the police never brought an evidence technician out here 553 00:38:09,336 --> 00:38:12,136 to check for fingerprints on it. 554 00:38:12,235 --> 00:38:17,625 Between here and the Ramada Inn, 555 00:38:17,625 --> 00:38:20,485 there's probably 1,000 dumpsters, 556 00:38:20,485 --> 00:38:25,505 so I think there has to be some reason this one in particular was chosen. 557 00:38:25,505 --> 00:38:30,335 There's a fair amount of drug-dealing and so on in this area. 558 00:38:30,335 --> 00:38:32,061 It's racially mixed 559 00:38:32,062 --> 00:38:35,362 and there's a kind of a rough crowd living right behind this building. 560 00:38:36,335 --> 00:38:41,305 To get... here in the Ramada Inn, 561 00:38:41,305 --> 00:38:44,765 it's about a nine and a half-mile drive. 562 00:38:44,765 --> 00:38:49,035 It's probably, without traffic, 563 00:38:49,035 --> 00:38:51,805 about a 20-minute drive. 564 00:38:51,805 --> 00:38:57,425 For a 15-year-old boy walking, round trip, it'd be quite some trek. 565 00:39:01,455 --> 00:39:03,615 Mr Stevens! 566 00:39:03,615 --> 00:39:07,555 OK, the pocket... It was white, it had some blood on it. 567 00:39:07,555 --> 00:39:10,315 Did you notice the blood? -No, sir. -OK. 568 00:39:10,315 --> 00:39:13,275 Did you look to see whose it was at all? -I opened it up. 569 00:39:13,275 --> 00:39:15,845 I took the wallet out. 570 00:39:15,845 --> 00:39:20,115 Now, they didn't give the woman's name that was killed on television. 571 00:39:20,115 --> 00:39:23,535 I found the pocketbook. All of her IDs was in it, 572 00:39:23,535 --> 00:39:25,655 her credit cards and everything else. 573 00:39:25,655 --> 00:39:27,095 How are you doing, ma'am? -Fine. 574 00:39:27,096 --> 00:39:30,196 My name's Pat McGuinness, I'm with the Public Defender's Office. 575 00:39:30,295 --> 00:39:34,185 You called the officer, he met you over there, you gave him the purse. 576 00:39:34,185 --> 00:39:36,765 Then I left. -Then you continued your route. -Right. 577 00:39:36,765 --> 00:39:40,275 When the police officer came back, the same one I gave the pocketbook to. 578 00:39:40,275 --> 00:39:43,795 Uniformed officer? -Yes, sir. -OK. -He said, "Do you have a few minutes?" 579 00:39:43,795 --> 00:39:46,655 I said, "Yeah". He says, "Somebody wants to talk to you". 580 00:39:46,655 --> 00:39:50,355 That's when the detective pulled up and said, "Boy, where's the gun?" 581 00:39:50,355 --> 00:39:53,125 - He called you "boy"? - He accused me of taking the gun. 582 00:39:53,125 --> 00:39:54,875 And did he call you "boy"? 583 00:39:54,876 --> 00:39:57,576 I think if I recall correct, yes. If I recall correctly. 584 00:39:57,675 --> 00:39:59,405 Did you get the... -No, sir. 585 00:39:59,405 --> 00:40:02,785 ...strong impression that he thought you'd took that gun? -Yeah. 586 00:40:02,785 --> 00:40:05,965 Was his manner, the way he was dealing with you, 587 00:40:05,965 --> 00:40:09,245 was it kind of accusatory? 588 00:40:09,245 --> 00:40:12,815 He accused me of taking it. I said, "If you want to search me, search me. 589 00:40:12,815 --> 00:40:16,795 "You can also search my buggy," cos that bag was on the back of it. 590 00:40:16,795 --> 00:40:18,535 I had three bags of cans hanging. 591 00:40:18,535 --> 00:40:21,395 "If you want to search it, search it, but I've got no gun". 592 00:40:21,395 --> 00:40:24,575 - There was no gun in the pocketbook. - What did he say? 593 00:40:24,575 --> 00:40:29,505 He look dumbfound. The police officer says I could leave, so I left. 594 00:40:29,505 --> 00:40:32,875 I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me. -You're welcome. 595 00:40:32,875 --> 00:40:35,965 And, like I said, any stuff I've found in the past, 596 00:40:35,965 --> 00:40:38,925 this is the first time I've ever had to go to court. 597 00:40:38,925 --> 00:40:42,865 Well, hopefully it'll be the last time, but I appreciate you taking the time... 598 00:40:42,865 --> 00:40:46,895 But now how the pocketbook got from Southside... 599 00:40:46,895 --> 00:40:49,615 to the Northside, 600 00:40:49,615 --> 00:40:52,795 only God knows that answer, cos I damn sure don't know it. -Nor me. 601 00:40:52,795 --> 00:40:57,539 How are you doing, sir? -Fine, Mr McGuinness. And you? -Pretty good. 602 00:41:01,615 --> 00:41:05,695 When the detective came to see you, what did he have to say to you? 603 00:41:05,695 --> 00:41:09,585 He got out of the car and he says, "Where's the gun, boy?" 604 00:41:09,585 --> 00:41:10,945 "What gun?" 605 00:41:10,945 --> 00:41:13,005 "The gun that's in the pocketbook". 606 00:41:13,005 --> 00:41:16,145 "I saw no gun in the pocketbook". 607 00:41:16,145 --> 00:41:18,865 "Now, if you want to search me, do so. 608 00:41:18,865 --> 00:41:21,625 "If you want to search my buggy, please do so, 609 00:41:21,625 --> 00:41:24,585 "but you're going to find no gun, cos I saw no gun". 610 00:41:24,585 --> 00:41:28,567 Was your impression he was accusing you of stealing the gun? -Yes, sir. 611 00:41:56,225 --> 00:41:58,295 How you doing? 612 00:42:03,535 --> 00:42:07,705 Oakland, the Raiders, they're playing good ball this year. 613 00:42:07,705 --> 00:42:11,785 They're a seven and one. The Chiefs is five and three. 614 00:42:11,785 --> 00:42:14,555 And the Broncos, four and four. 615 00:42:14,555 --> 00:42:17,645 [INAUDIBLE] 616 00:42:17,645 --> 00:42:21,215 No, not at all. But I just want you to... 617 00:42:21,215 --> 00:42:24,815 Everything went well today, as far as your preparation. 618 00:42:24,815 --> 00:42:27,775 We're just happy with what we have at this point. 619 00:42:27,775 --> 00:42:31,665 We have more than ample information 620 00:42:31,665 --> 00:42:33,495 and documentation 621 00:42:33,495 --> 00:42:35,695 to put before the judge 622 00:42:35,695 --> 00:42:38,225 to let him know that, actually, 623 00:42:38,225 --> 00:42:41,275 a lot of things really wasn't done properly. 624 00:42:41,275 --> 00:42:45,025 Your granddaddy called me today and sung Happy Birthday to me. 625 00:42:45,025 --> 00:42:47,885 He said you got a big birthday present coming, 626 00:42:47,885 --> 00:42:49,671 so I don't know what it is. 627 00:42:51,115 --> 00:42:53,085 I don't know what it is. 628 00:42:53,085 --> 00:42:57,305 So, how... Let me see what I was going to ask you about. 629 00:42:57,305 --> 00:43:01,105 You're the birthday present. -Yeah. -You're the birthday present. 630 00:43:01,105 --> 00:43:02,835 That's what I said to myself. 631 00:43:02,835 --> 00:43:05,975 I said, "Shoot, the biggest birthday present I can get is Brent 632 00:43:05,975 --> 00:43:08,325 "and that would be the best birthday present". 633 00:43:08,325 --> 00:43:11,605 So let me let your daddy pray with you before we go, OK? 634 00:43:11,605 --> 00:43:13,618 And I love you sweetheart, OK? 635 00:43:16,435 --> 00:43:20,185 - OK, son... - Let's pray. 636 00:43:20,185 --> 00:43:23,045 Dear Heavenly Father, we come before you this evening 637 00:43:23,045 --> 00:43:24,585 and, as usual, 638 00:43:24,585 --> 00:43:27,775 we know that actually you are in control, dear Heavenly Father. 639 00:43:27,775 --> 00:43:30,545 Dear Heavenly Father, we ask you to be in that courtroom 640 00:43:30,545 --> 00:43:32,695 for us tomorrow, dear Heavenly Father. 641 00:43:32,695 --> 00:43:37,105 We ask that you give Mr McGuinness all the tools that is needed, 642 00:43:37,105 --> 00:43:42,075 and his staff, to really work on our son's behalf, dear Heavenly Father. 643 00:43:42,075 --> 00:43:46,195 Dear Heavenly Father, we ask you to touch the judge, dear Heavenly Father. 644 00:43:46,195 --> 00:43:49,295 We ask you to really touch his mind 645 00:43:49,295 --> 00:43:52,715 for he can make just rulings in our favour, dear Heavenly Father. 646 00:43:52,715 --> 00:43:55,845 Dear Heavenly Father, we love you, we honour and we adore you, 647 00:43:55,846 --> 00:43:57,446 dear Heavenly Father. 648 00:43:57,545 --> 00:44:01,163 We're going to give you the praise all of our days. Amen. -Amen. 649 00:44:58,345 --> 00:45:01,815 They questioned Brent off and on over a period of 12 hours 650 00:45:01,815 --> 00:45:04,715 and they brought in a fellow I regard as a specialist 651 00:45:04,715 --> 00:45:06,505 in obtaining confessions. 652 00:45:06,505 --> 00:45:10,020 And he didn't succeed, and it frustrated him. 653 00:45:11,425 --> 00:45:15,505 They took a 15-year-old boy out to the woods, 654 00:45:15,505 --> 00:45:21,365 and the others left them alone and gave them their privacy, 655 00:45:21,365 --> 00:45:24,505 so they'd have plausible deniability. 656 00:45:24,505 --> 00:45:27,035 They left him with this specialist, 657 00:45:27,035 --> 00:45:29,615 and that man punched him in the stomach twice 658 00:45:29,615 --> 00:45:31,355 and punched him in the face. 659 00:45:32,475 --> 00:45:36,878 They beat a 15-year-old boy because he said he was innocent. 660 00:45:44,795 --> 00:45:46,535 - That's a Miller? - Yeah. 661 00:45:51,225 --> 00:45:53,425 Now, he looked worse than this when I saw him. 662 00:45:53,425 --> 00:45:56,375 Yeah, he looked much worse than that when I took the pictures. 663 00:45:56,375 --> 00:46:00,125 This one is good, but it still doesn't show him the way I saw him. 664 00:46:00,125 --> 00:46:02,285 No, I saw him the same day you saw him, 665 00:46:02,285 --> 00:46:05,895 and right in here was just swollen, awful. 666 00:46:05,895 --> 00:46:08,005 Usually I wait to the end of the interview, 667 00:46:08,005 --> 00:46:10,065 on the interview seat, to do the photos. 668 00:46:10,065 --> 00:46:12,415 We stopped as soon as he came in to take them, 669 00:46:12,415 --> 00:46:15,125 cos it was so apparent right in here. 670 00:46:15,125 --> 00:46:19,485 You can see the glare a little bit better as far as the leverage. 671 00:46:19,485 --> 00:46:23,005 Can Andrew do anything to enhance the resolution? 672 00:46:23,005 --> 00:46:25,585 As far as it being on an African-American, 673 00:46:25,585 --> 00:46:27,595 the skin tone's a lot different. 674 00:46:27,595 --> 00:46:29,895 But we're going to need to explain to a jury 675 00:46:29,895 --> 00:46:33,085 this doesn't accurately show the way he looked. 676 00:46:33,085 --> 00:46:35,005 This one's pretty good. 677 00:46:35,005 --> 00:46:36,695 I contacted the State Attorney, 678 00:46:36,695 --> 00:46:40,165 which is something I generally don't do that early in a case, 679 00:46:40,165 --> 00:46:42,885 and I gave the State my photographs 680 00:46:42,885 --> 00:46:46,635 and I told him what I believed we could prove, 681 00:46:46,635 --> 00:46:51,555 and it didn't matter because they were politically in a position 682 00:46:51,555 --> 00:46:54,085 where they felt they had to prosecute 683 00:46:54,085 --> 00:46:56,713 to defend the honour of these detectives. 684 00:46:58,725 --> 00:47:02,525 And everything that has happened since then... 685 00:47:04,025 --> 00:47:07,115 ...I believe, has been an effort 686 00:47:07,115 --> 00:47:10,915 to defend the honour of these detectives, 687 00:47:10,915 --> 00:47:14,195 who I do not find to be honourable men. 688 00:47:14,195 --> 00:47:17,005 - Could you state your name, please? - Michael Glover. 689 00:47:17,005 --> 00:47:20,005 - Where are you employed? - The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office. 690 00:47:20,005 --> 00:47:22,915 In what capacity? -I'm assigned to the Homicide Division. 691 00:47:22,915 --> 00:47:26,005 How long have you been with the Homicide Division? -Five years. 692 00:47:26,005 --> 00:47:28,965 How long have you been with the Sheriff's Office? -11 years. 693 00:47:28,965 --> 00:47:31,025 Where did you first meet Mr Butler? 694 00:47:31,025 --> 00:47:33,835 In the Homicide Office, in one of our interview rooms. 695 00:47:33,835 --> 00:47:36,835 What happened when you first went into the interview room? 696 00:47:36,835 --> 00:47:39,325 When I first walked in, I saw the defendant, 697 00:47:39,325 --> 00:47:42,745 and the defendant looked at me and he made a comment that indicated, 698 00:47:42,745 --> 00:47:44,245 "Boy, am I glad to see you". 699 00:47:44,245 --> 00:47:48,505 Did you then have a conversation with him? -Yes, ma'am, I did. 700 00:47:48,505 --> 00:47:50,855 I asked him, "Was it an accident?" 701 00:47:50,855 --> 00:47:54,885 And it was at that point he nodded his head and said, "Yes," 702 00:47:54,885 --> 00:47:58,165 and said, "I didn't mean to shoot the victim". 703 00:47:58,165 --> 00:48:03,605 He began to hug me and cried, and I hugged him back, and he indicated... 704 00:48:03,605 --> 00:48:08,525 he said that the victim had given him a mean look. 705 00:48:08,525 --> 00:48:10,495 It was at that point 706 00:48:10,495 --> 00:48:14,525 I got close to his ear and I said, 707 00:48:14,525 --> 00:48:17,525 "Why did you shoot the lady?" 708 00:48:17,525 --> 00:48:20,055 And at that point, he said 709 00:48:20,055 --> 00:48:24,235 he didn't mean to hurt anybody, he just needed her purse. 710 00:48:24,235 --> 00:48:28,405 It was after that he immediately made a statement 711 00:48:28,405 --> 00:48:33,135 saying that he had the gun down by his side 712 00:48:33,135 --> 00:48:37,083 and he raised the gun up toward her face and it fired. 713 00:48:39,045 --> 00:48:43,405 He said after that he threw the weapon somewhere, 714 00:48:43,405 --> 00:48:45,885 but he didn't remember where he threw the weapon. 715 00:48:45,885 --> 00:48:47,245 What happened then? 716 00:48:47,245 --> 00:48:51,375 At that part of the interview I asked him to tell me again 717 00:48:51,375 --> 00:48:53,575 what happened with the weapon, 718 00:48:53,575 --> 00:48:56,055 and this time, I wanted you to be truthful about it. 719 00:48:56,055 --> 00:48:58,545 And it was at that point 720 00:48:58,545 --> 00:49:01,595 he stated that he put the weapon 721 00:49:01,595 --> 00:49:04,735 on the back of an 18-wheeler truck. 722 00:49:04,735 --> 00:49:08,295 I told him, you've been truthful 723 00:49:08,295 --> 00:49:11,765 and you've been communicating with me and co-operating with me, 724 00:49:11,765 --> 00:49:14,295 and I was explaining to him how I appreciated that, 725 00:49:14,295 --> 00:49:19,635 but I told him that I didn't believe that he actually placed the weapon 726 00:49:19,635 --> 00:49:22,735 in the purse on the back of an 18-wheeler truck. 727 00:49:22,735 --> 00:49:27,565 And I asked him again. "Tell me, where did you put the weapon?" 728 00:49:27,565 --> 00:49:30,515 And it was at that point he stated 729 00:49:30,515 --> 00:49:34,875 that he threw the weapon in the woods near the scene. 730 00:49:34,875 --> 00:49:37,125 Yes, he is a black man. 731 00:49:37,125 --> 00:49:39,705 His father also is the sheriff, 732 00:49:39,705 --> 00:49:41,400 so it's just like... 733 00:49:42,895 --> 00:49:44,855 ...whatever Glover says, 734 00:49:44,855 --> 00:49:48,382 a lot of people believe it's credible evidence, you know? 735 00:49:49,735 --> 00:49:53,068 And he had been involved in so many different things. 736 00:49:54,935 --> 00:49:59,395 I'm angry due to the fact when he said that when Brent saw him, 737 00:49:59,395 --> 00:50:02,489 he just hugged him and said, "I'm so glad to see you". 738 00:50:02,714 --> 00:50:06,755 And I know Brent better than that, because... 739 00:50:06,755 --> 00:50:10,455 you really have to approach him, go up and talk with him. 740 00:50:10,455 --> 00:50:14,115 And he's not the type of person that will run up and hug you. 741 00:50:14,115 --> 00:50:18,242 You all probably have seen that in the courtroom, you know, 742 00:50:18,242 --> 00:50:22,882 he kind of stays to himself, so it's like, what Glover is saying... 743 00:50:22,882 --> 00:50:27,192 Like I said, I don't believe it. 744 00:50:27,192 --> 00:50:29,832 PROSECUTOR: During that time period when you were in the woods 745 00:50:29,833 --> 00:50:31,833 with the defendant, 746 00:50:31,932 --> 00:50:36,332 other than holding the belt, did you touch him in any way? 747 00:50:36,332 --> 00:50:39,332 No, ma'am. -Did you hit him? -No, ma'am. 748 00:50:39,332 --> 00:50:44,682 Did you raise your voice? -No, ma'am. -Did you make any threats? -No, ma'am. 749 00:50:44,682 --> 00:50:46,792 - Did you threaten his family? - No, ma'am. 750 00:50:46,792 --> 00:50:49,512 And then also the interview you'd already had with him, 751 00:50:49,512 --> 00:50:51,902 did you ever threaten him or his family? 752 00:50:51,902 --> 00:50:53,028 No, ma'am, I didn't. 753 00:50:54,382 --> 00:50:56,828 Mr Glover, how are you? -Yes, sir. 754 00:51:00,992 --> 00:51:04,280 - Are you related to Nat Glover? - Yes, sir. 755 00:51:05,962 --> 00:51:08,262 - He is the sheriff? - Yes, sir. 756 00:51:08,262 --> 00:51:10,792 When did he become sheriff? 757 00:51:10,792 --> 00:51:15,482 Um, four years ago. -July 1, 1995? -Yes, sir. 758 00:51:15,482 --> 00:51:19,652 Was it '95 when you became a homicide detective? -Yes, sir. 759 00:51:19,652 --> 00:51:22,842 They were stuck with a problem. 760 00:51:22,842 --> 00:51:25,792 You got two lieutenants, two sergeants, 761 00:51:25,792 --> 00:51:29,402 you got the media camped out, with trucks there already. 762 00:51:29,402 --> 00:51:32,492 You got a white tourist in Florida at a motel, killed. 763 00:51:32,492 --> 00:51:35,492 But they're not getting anywhere on the confession, 764 00:51:35,492 --> 00:51:38,912 so they think, "OK, we'll pull in an African-American 765 00:51:38,912 --> 00:51:42,242 "to see if he can establish some rapport with the child". 766 00:51:42,242 --> 00:51:47,262 Glover said - and I find this incredible - that the police, 767 00:51:47,262 --> 00:51:48,992 that Williams and Darnell, 768 00:51:48,992 --> 00:51:53,172 told him that they thought the child was ready to confess. 769 00:51:53,172 --> 00:51:56,402 Those were the words he used, if I remember. 770 00:51:56,402 --> 00:51:59,312 So he goes in with this state of mind that, hey, 771 00:51:59,312 --> 00:52:01,182 this kid is ready to confess. 772 00:52:01,182 --> 00:52:04,782 The first hostility comes about this when he says, 773 00:52:04,783 --> 00:52:06,283 "I did some bad things in my life," 774 00:52:06,382 --> 00:52:10,792 and the kid says, "I've never had any dealings with the police," 775 00:52:10,792 --> 00:52:14,782 and Glover gets upset. 776 00:52:14,782 --> 00:52:20,592 He says, "You're lying. It's niggers like you that make me mad". 777 00:52:20,592 --> 00:52:24,202 You were there to get a confession, we have established that, right? 778 00:52:24,202 --> 00:52:27,762 Yes, sir. -And you didn't know whether he was innocent or guilty. 779 00:52:27,762 --> 00:52:32,402 No, sir. Not at that point. -You told Brenton Butler to be truthful, right? 780 00:52:32,402 --> 00:52:33,762 Yes, sir. 781 00:52:33,762 --> 00:52:38,592 But you had a very particular idea of the truth you wanted, right? 782 00:52:38,592 --> 00:52:40,422 Yes, sir. 783 00:52:40,422 --> 00:52:43,282 You wanted him to say something different than what 784 00:52:43,282 --> 00:52:47,822 he'd been telling other detectives since 10 o'clock that morning. Right? 785 00:52:47,822 --> 00:52:52,792 No, sir. If he was involved, then, yes, I wanted the truth. 786 00:52:52,792 --> 00:52:58,232 You set yourself right up in his face, knee to knee, right? -Yes, sir. 787 00:52:58,232 --> 00:53:02,642 And they teach you that in those interrogation schools? -Yes, sir. 788 00:53:02,642 --> 00:53:05,452 You've been to five of those, right? -Yes, sir. 789 00:53:06,952 --> 00:53:10,232 And they tell you to get some physical contact 790 00:53:10,232 --> 00:53:13,372 with the subject of the interview, don't they? 791 00:53:13,372 --> 00:53:18,442 What do you mean when you say physical contact? -Touching people. 792 00:53:18,442 --> 00:53:24,012 Yes, sir. Some of the techniques we use involve touching people. -OK. 793 00:53:24,012 --> 00:53:28,232 - And you grabbed his hand, didn't you? - I held his hand. 794 00:53:28,232 --> 00:53:32,032 I never referred to Glover as "Detective Glover". 795 00:53:32,032 --> 00:53:36,162 He didn't do any detective work in this case. 796 00:53:36,162 --> 00:53:39,952 And it bothers the witness when he's not called by the title 797 00:53:39,952 --> 00:53:43,052 he thinks he should have. 798 00:53:43,052 --> 00:53:48,252 And my purpose when I'm trying to show someone is lying is to make them 799 00:53:48,252 --> 00:53:51,062 uncomfortable, to make them offguard. 800 00:53:51,062 --> 00:53:54,582 Sometimes, I like it when they fight me, 801 00:53:54,582 --> 00:53:58,752 because when they do, I believe I'm going to win. 802 00:53:58,752 --> 00:54:03,303 How tall are you, sir? -5'11. -What do you weigh? -240 pounds. 803 00:54:04,562 --> 00:54:09,392 You played high school ball, college ball? -Yes, sir. -Played line man? 804 00:54:09,392 --> 00:54:12,532 Yes, sir. -As a line man, you hit people? -Yes, sir. 805 00:54:12,532 --> 00:54:17,782 You were on scholarship? -Yes, sir. -You hit people well? -Yes, sir. 806 00:54:17,782 --> 00:54:20,832 - And you hit them hard, right? - Yes, sir. 807 00:54:20,832 --> 00:54:26,222 And do you think a 240-pound man considerably his senior 808 00:54:26,222 --> 00:54:31,662 grabbing his hand was going to make Mr Butler more comfortable 809 00:54:31,662 --> 00:54:34,562 and more willing to chat with you? 810 00:54:34,562 --> 00:54:35,642 Yes, sir. 811 00:54:35,642 --> 00:54:37,752 Is that generally the response you get 812 00:54:37,752 --> 00:54:41,052 when you go around grabbing guys' hands? -I don't go grabbing guys' hands. 813 00:54:41,052 --> 00:54:43,362 I made that procedure from the comment he made to me 814 00:54:43,363 --> 00:54:45,763 when I first entered the room. 815 00:54:45,862 --> 00:54:51,072 Well, did you ask Mr Butler, "Friend, 816 00:54:51,072 --> 00:54:55,052 "little buddy," - you are holding his hand - "where did you get the gun"? 817 00:54:55,052 --> 00:54:56,462 No, sir. 818 00:54:57,632 --> 00:55:01,662 Did you ask him who might have ever seen him with this gun? -No, sir. 819 00:55:01,662 --> 00:55:05,932 Did you ask him where he got ammunition for this gun? -No, sir. 820 00:55:05,932 --> 00:55:09,162 - Did you ask him where he stored it? - No, sir. 821 00:55:09,162 --> 00:55:13,472 Did you ask him how or where he carried it to or from the scene? 822 00:55:13,472 --> 00:55:19,332 No, sir. -You just weren't curious at that time? -Not at that time, no, sir. 823 00:55:19,332 --> 00:55:21,212 Gotten curious since? 824 00:55:21,212 --> 00:55:22,713 Yes, sir. 825 00:55:24,912 --> 00:55:30,912 - Done any more investigating? - No, sir, it's not my case. 826 00:55:30,912 --> 00:55:34,382 "Not my responsibility"? -No, sir. -Yeah. 827 00:55:37,102 --> 00:55:41,652 Well, weren't you a little bit interested in the murder weapon? 828 00:55:41,652 --> 00:55:44,982 Recovering it? Yes, sir. 829 00:55:44,982 --> 00:55:48,162 Didn't you even want to know what type it might have been? 830 00:55:48,162 --> 00:55:50,832 No, sir, not at that time. 831 00:55:50,832 --> 00:55:55,712 Why would three detectives take Brent into the woods? 832 00:55:55,712 --> 00:55:58,382 I don't think they would take him out to the woods 833 00:55:58,382 --> 00:56:00,962 solely for the purpose of roughing him up. 834 00:56:00,962 --> 00:56:04,382 I just don't believe that. -Because Glover suggested it, that's why. 835 00:56:04,382 --> 00:56:07,992 But Williams, who is the lead detective, presumably would know 836 00:56:07,992 --> 00:56:13,012 that those woods had been searched already by patrol officers and dogs. 837 00:56:13,012 --> 00:56:15,970 Williams doesn't know jack about his own case. 838 00:56:17,742 --> 00:56:21,072 They would have to have a good faith basis to believe perhaps 839 00:56:21,072 --> 00:56:24,212 the gun and purse were in the woods, don't you think? 840 00:56:24,212 --> 00:56:27,822 I think they think, "Well, we haven't broken the kid. 841 00:56:27,822 --> 00:56:29,662 "We know he got picked up around here, 842 00:56:29,663 --> 00:56:32,463 "there's a good chance he dumped the gun. 843 00:56:32,562 --> 00:56:35,132 "Let's go see if we can find it, and, if we can, 844 00:56:35,132 --> 00:56:38,932 "we'll confront him with it, and maybe get a confession". 845 00:56:38,932 --> 00:56:40,812 If I am understanding you correctly, 846 00:56:40,812 --> 00:56:45,312 you're telling us you're having this conversation with Brenton Butler, 847 00:56:45,312 --> 00:56:48,782 and he says he threw the gun in the woods, right? 848 00:56:48,782 --> 00:56:49,992 That is correct. 849 00:56:49,992 --> 00:56:54,122 Did he say where he was when he threw this gun into the woods? 850 00:56:54,122 --> 00:56:55,852 On the roadway. 851 00:56:55,852 --> 00:56:59,709 So it would be within an arm's throw of the roadway, right? 852 00:57:03,032 --> 00:57:05,752 I would still be guessing, but, yes, sir. 853 00:57:05,752 --> 00:57:08,372 Well, you didn't say he kicked it, right? -No, sir. 854 00:57:08,372 --> 00:57:12,122 You didn't say the gun had wings or anything like that, right? -No, sir. 855 00:57:12,122 --> 00:57:17,282 So you think an arm's throw was a fair inference from what you remember? 856 00:57:17,282 --> 00:57:19,489 It depends on how hard he threw it. 857 00:57:38,282 --> 00:57:45,552 Joiner and Darnell supposedly parked on the far side of Cagle. 858 00:57:56,092 --> 00:58:02,292 According to... Williams, they spent like an hour in these woods. 859 00:58:03,832 --> 00:58:06,699 According to Darnell, it was 15 minutes. 860 00:58:09,642 --> 00:58:13,302 And just walking through these woods, with all the vines, 861 00:58:13,302 --> 00:58:18,552 in handcuffs, at dusk, with only the good detective Glover to help you 862 00:58:18,552 --> 00:58:20,850 would be a scary proposition. 863 00:58:32,802 --> 00:58:39,132 If it is dusk and Glover is hitting Brent, 864 00:58:39,132 --> 00:58:43,952 there is no way they're going to be able to see it from out there. 865 00:58:43,952 --> 00:58:49,632 How long during your walk in the woods 866 00:58:49,632 --> 00:58:57,084 were you out of sight of Detectives Darnell, Williams and Sergeant Joiner? 867 00:58:58,202 --> 00:59:00,318 Maybe 30 minutes. 868 00:59:02,702 --> 00:59:04,442 Do you know why everybody left you? 869 00:59:04,442 --> 00:59:09,132 They were searching the immediate area where he originally showed. 870 00:59:09,132 --> 00:59:13,062 But you had the guy who was supposed to know where the gun was, right? 871 00:59:13,062 --> 00:59:14,562 Yes, sir. 872 00:59:14,562 --> 00:59:16,492 And on your trip to the woods, 873 00:59:16,492 --> 00:59:20,522 he had himself trussed up like a Christmas turkey, arms in front, 874 00:59:20,522 --> 00:59:21,832 tied to his belt, 875 00:59:21,832 --> 00:59:25,442 and you had a little strap in the back? -Yes, sir, he was cuffed. 876 00:59:25,442 --> 00:59:26,852 OK. 877 00:59:26,852 --> 00:59:31,352 And he really was not in a position to defend himself at all should 878 00:59:31,352 --> 00:59:33,934 he be attacked by anybody, right? 879 00:59:35,142 --> 00:59:37,212 I wouldn't let anybody attack him. 880 00:59:39,502 --> 00:59:43,212 - Are you right-handed or left-handed? - Right-handed. 881 00:59:43,212 --> 00:59:46,442 So if you're facing somebody, you pop them, 882 00:59:46,442 --> 00:59:51,462 do you more often hit with the right or left side? 883 00:59:51,462 --> 00:59:53,111 Objection, Your Honour. 884 00:59:54,502 --> 00:59:56,857 JUDGE: Yes, sustained. Reform the question. 885 00:59:58,072 --> 01:00:02,332 Now, you had gone out there, you say, expecting to find a gun, right? 886 01:00:02,332 --> 01:00:05,942 Yes, sir. -Must've been kind of disappointing when you didn't. 887 01:00:05,942 --> 01:00:10,772 Was it? -Yes, sir. -You a little annoyed about it? -No, sir. 888 01:00:10,772 --> 01:00:16,262 Did you happen to punch Brenton Butler twice in the gut? -No, sir. 889 01:00:16,262 --> 01:00:19,686 - How about once in the left eye? - No, sir. 890 01:00:21,272 --> 01:00:24,572 And, if you did, that would be 891 01:00:24,573 --> 01:00:27,973 a violation of department regulations, right? 892 01:00:28,072 --> 01:00:29,622 That's correct. 893 01:00:29,622 --> 01:00:36,462 And that could result in suspension or dismissal. 894 01:00:36,462 --> 01:00:41,152 And if you had done that, would you tell us the truth about it, sir? 895 01:00:41,152 --> 01:00:43,162 Yes, sir. 896 01:00:43,162 --> 01:00:49,022 Is that not your custom, to tell the truth in situations such as that? 897 01:00:49,022 --> 01:00:53,573 - Objection, Your Honour. - Sustained. 898 01:00:56,952 --> 01:00:59,712 And how did that appear to you as you viewed it? 899 01:00:59,712 --> 01:01:04,352 It was a large welt, like he had been hit. 900 01:01:04,352 --> 01:01:06,078 PROSECUTOR: Your Honour, 901 01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:11,279 I am going to object to any conclusions by this witness. 902 01:01:11,342 --> 01:01:15,932 JUDGE: Overruled. -And does it show up on the defendant's form? 903 01:01:15,932 --> 01:01:18,272 That's just a different view. 904 01:01:18,272 --> 01:01:22,022 With a swelling, I take it from different angles, 905 01:01:22,022 --> 01:01:23,712 so you can see it, 906 01:01:23,712 --> 01:01:27,322 rather than a bruising that you can take straight on. 907 01:01:27,322 --> 01:01:30,512 So it was right in that area right there. 908 01:01:30,512 --> 01:01:33,185 There is a bruising right in here. 909 01:01:35,202 --> 01:01:38,062 Where would that be on your body, Miss Smith? 910 01:01:38,062 --> 01:01:40,644 Right in the middle of my chest area. 911 01:02:10,962 --> 01:02:13,738 This time, we call Brenton Butler. 912 01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,910 Juveniles are not very easy to work with. 913 01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:30,050 They have a lack of sophistication, oftentimes limited vocabulary, 914 01:02:30,050 --> 01:02:33,292 difficulty sometimes expressing themselves. 915 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,100 They are not as focused on things, 916 01:02:38,100 --> 01:02:41,900 they have a tendency to be distracted. 917 01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:49,180 How I worked with Mr Butler was to take the interview 918 01:02:49,180 --> 01:02:54,430 that had been done of him and the affidavit that he had executed 919 01:02:54,430 --> 01:02:59,490 for his bond hearing, and break it down into small pieces. 920 01:02:59,490 --> 01:03:04,040 When you got down to the police station, were you put into a room? 921 01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:06,710 - Yes, ma'am. - And who came in? 922 01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:09,710 Detective Darnell and Detective Williams. 923 01:03:09,710 --> 01:03:12,520 Was the next person you met Detective Glover? 924 01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:19,600 Correct. -Now, Brent, had you ever seen that man before? -No, ma'am. 925 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:25,090 When he walked in, did you say, "Boy, am I glad to see you"? 926 01:03:25,090 --> 01:03:26,490 No, ma'am. 927 01:03:26,490 --> 01:03:28,880 What did he start talking to you about? 928 01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,130 He started talking about sports. 929 01:03:31,130 --> 01:03:35,590 Is he being friendly, is he being nice, or is he being mean? 930 01:03:35,590 --> 01:03:38,160 At that point, he's being nice. 931 01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,660 Did there come a time when he became not so nice to you? -Yes, ma'am. 932 01:03:42,660 --> 01:03:47,120 Did he use any racial comment towards you? -Yes, ma'am. 933 01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:48,570 What did he tell you? 934 01:03:48,570 --> 01:03:51,710 He said, "It's niggers like you that make me mad these days". 935 01:03:51,710 --> 01:03:55,320 What did he do when he told you that? -He started poking at my chest. 936 01:03:55,320 --> 01:04:00,810 With what? -His finger, going like this, poking at my chest. 937 01:04:00,810 --> 01:04:04,370 Was he saying anything as he was doing this? -Yes, ma'am. -What? 938 01:04:04,370 --> 01:04:07,930 Saying, "I'm going to get you. I am going to get you". 939 01:04:07,930 --> 01:04:12,380 Did he touch you again? -Yes, ma'am. -What did he do? 940 01:04:12,380 --> 01:04:15,990 He banged his fist into me chest. -Show me. -Like... 941 01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:20,450 Did he then give you a scenario of what he thought had happened? 942 01:04:20,450 --> 01:04:23,680 Yes, he said, "You accidentally shot the lady, 943 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,850 "you ran and threw the gun and purse in the woods". 944 01:04:27,850 --> 01:04:31,092 What did you say? -I said, "No sir. I had nothing to do with that". 945 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,210 Does the issue of trying to go out into the woods 946 01:04:35,210 --> 01:04:37,890 and find the gun come up? -Yes, ma'am. 947 01:04:37,890 --> 01:04:43,040 How far did Detective Glover walk you into the woods? -Pretty deep. 948 01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,560 And what is the lighting like inside the woods at this time? 949 01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,170 It's pretty dim. Like, shady. 950 01:04:50,170 --> 01:04:55,324 At some point, did Detective Glover hit you? -Yes, ma'am. 951 01:04:56,780 --> 01:05:01,180 - Where did he hit you first? - In my stomach. 952 01:05:01,180 --> 01:05:04,180 - How hard? - I fell to my knees. 953 01:05:04,180 --> 01:05:08,030 - What did you say? - I said, "I can't help you. 954 01:05:08,030 --> 01:05:11,920 "I don't know anything about a gun or purse". -What did he do? 955 01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:16,650 Hit my stomach again. -What did you do? -Fell to my knees. -Did it hurt? 956 01:05:16,650 --> 01:05:22,510 Yes, ma'am. -What happened after you fell onto your knees a second time? 957 01:05:22,510 --> 01:05:25,610 I was crying. He said, "You look pathetic". 958 01:05:25,610 --> 01:05:27,530 He pulled me up by my shirt. 959 01:05:27,530 --> 01:05:31,610 Did you get hit again? -Yes, ma'am. -Where? -Hit me on my left eye. 960 01:05:31,610 --> 01:05:34,140 How hard did he hit you? 961 01:05:34,140 --> 01:05:38,970 It wasn't no knockout punch or nothing like that. 962 01:05:38,970 --> 01:05:43,280 But it was a hit. I took a few steps back. 963 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:48,060 I anticipated that the police were not going to admit that they had harmed him, 964 01:05:48,060 --> 01:05:50,400 and it would be important 965 01:05:50,401 --> 01:05:54,901 to put his injuries into the context of the interrogation. 966 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:59,170 The only real way to do that, since there are only three detectives 967 01:05:59,170 --> 01:06:02,030 and Mr Butler as witnesses to these injuries, 968 01:06:02,030 --> 01:06:05,500 and since I anticipated that the detectives would be denying 969 01:06:05,500 --> 01:06:09,300 the injuries, the only way to really explain to the court of the jury 970 01:06:09,300 --> 01:06:12,390 how the injuries occurred would be for him to testify. 971 01:06:12,390 --> 01:06:16,090 So when you saw Detective Darnell, what did he do? 972 01:06:16,090 --> 01:06:18,950 At that point, he had pulled out a form. 973 01:06:18,950 --> 01:06:22,420 And what did he start to do with that form? 974 01:06:22,470 --> 01:06:29,170 He said, "You have robbed her. You robbed the old lady. 975 01:06:29,170 --> 01:06:33,860 "And you pulled a gun real fast. You shot her. 976 01:06:33,860 --> 01:06:37,610 "You ran home," or something like that. 977 01:06:37,610 --> 01:06:40,560 And what is he doing as he's telling you these things? 978 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:45,160 At that point, he is writing it down. -OK. 979 01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:50,690 And when he got done going through this, what did he tell you to do? 980 01:06:50,690 --> 01:06:53,360 - He told me to sign. - What happened? 981 01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:57,350 At that point he was looking at his holster, like. 982 01:06:57,350 --> 01:07:00,860 I said, "What are you going to do, shoot me?" He said, "You guessed right". 983 01:07:00,860 --> 01:07:04,800 He said every 10 seconds that passed, he was going to hit me. 984 01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:10,380 Did 10 seconds pass by? -Yes, ma'am. -And what did he do? 985 01:07:10,380 --> 01:07:16,478 He hit me twice on my left eye. -Did you sign the form? -Yes, ma'am. 986 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:25,710 Now, Brent, did you shoot the lady, Mrs Stevens, 987 01:07:25,710 --> 01:07:31,190 at the Ramada Inn the morning of May 7? -No, ma'am. 988 01:07:31,190 --> 01:07:34,850 Were you at the Ramada Inn the morning of May 7? -No, ma'am. 989 01:07:34,850 --> 01:07:37,542 Never been there before. 990 01:07:54,820 --> 01:07:58,010 Good morning, ma'am. -Good morning. -Can you tell us who you are? 991 01:07:58,010 --> 01:08:00,007 I am Melissa Butler. 992 01:08:00,020 --> 01:08:05,740 I think you said you usually get up before seven, is that correct? -Always. 993 01:08:05,740 --> 01:08:10,520 OK. And do you know if that was true this morning? 994 01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:14,270 Yes, because I still can't sleep past seven. 995 01:08:14,270 --> 01:08:16,990 What do you do when you get up? 996 01:08:16,990 --> 01:08:20,190 Well, when I used to get up in the morning, I would 997 01:08:20,191 --> 01:08:22,191 go ahead and pray as usual, 998 01:08:22,290 --> 01:08:26,230 go in the bathroom and do whatever I need to do in there. 999 01:08:26,230 --> 01:08:28,240 It took about 10 minutes. 1000 01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:33,540 After I left my bedroom, I went directly to Brent's room. 1001 01:08:33,540 --> 01:08:36,020 His door was closed, I opened his door, 1002 01:08:36,020 --> 01:08:38,180 he was in bed, still, in his boxers, 1003 01:08:38,180 --> 01:08:40,810 but his back was turned towards the door, 1004 01:08:40,810 --> 01:08:42,960 his face facing his bedroom wall. 1005 01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:46,710 The next time that I saw Brent after leaving my bedroom, 1006 01:08:46,710 --> 01:08:50,650 when I was here, Brent was right here in the foyer area 1007 01:08:50,650 --> 01:08:53,650 near the fourth bedroom, which is here. 1008 01:08:53,650 --> 01:08:57,210 I would assume he was coming out of the fourth bedroom 1009 01:08:57,210 --> 01:08:59,790 from the laundry room, which is here. 1010 01:08:59,790 --> 01:09:03,070 Did you speak at all with each other at that point? 1011 01:09:03,070 --> 01:09:06,730 Yes, when we met, here, I said, "Good morning, Brent," 1012 01:09:06,730 --> 01:09:08,370 and he said, "Good morning". 1013 01:09:08,370 --> 01:09:11,420 Now, did you encounter any policemen that morning? -Yes. 1014 01:09:11,420 --> 01:09:13,760 Did either of those gentlemen speak to you 1015 01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:15,780 or your husband in your presence? 1016 01:09:15,780 --> 01:09:20,420 Yes. -Tell me, if you would, about that conversation. 1017 01:09:20,420 --> 01:09:24,170 They asked, "Does Brent Butler live here?" 1018 01:09:24,170 --> 01:09:29,370 And we said yes, and my husband said, "What can I help you with?" 1019 01:09:29,370 --> 01:09:32,280 And they said, "Well, we just want to question him, 1020 01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:37,010 "we're not accusing him of anything, we just want to question him 1021 01:09:37,010 --> 01:09:40,250 "to see if he knows anything about the break-ins in the area". 1022 01:09:40,250 --> 01:09:45,030 Now, you went in and Brenton wasn't there, 1023 01:09:45,030 --> 01:09:46,900 and you told the police that, right? 1024 01:09:46,900 --> 01:09:48,500 Yes. 1025 01:09:48,500 --> 01:09:51,920 Did that alarm you or upset you, or was that unusual? 1026 01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,620 Well, it was not unusual for Brent to leave the house without telling us, 1027 01:09:55,620 --> 01:09:59,700 but it was very unusual for Brent to stay gone for a long period 1028 01:09:59,700 --> 01:10:03,400 of time, cos he would stay no more than 30 minutes to an hour. 1029 01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,200 He would have never left the house and just gone and stayed. 1030 01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:08,750 And that's what upset me. 1031 01:10:08,750 --> 01:10:11,750 And I called my sister, Emma, and I said, 1032 01:10:11,750 --> 01:10:13,720 "What could have happened to him?" 1033 01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:16,150 And she said, "Well, call some of his friends". 1034 01:10:16,150 --> 01:10:19,390 Sean is the only friend that I know Brent associates with, 1035 01:10:19,390 --> 01:10:24,830 so I called Sean on my cellphone to ask had he talked to Brett today? 1036 01:10:24,830 --> 01:10:29,190 He said, no. At that time, I knew something had happened to my son. 1037 01:10:29,190 --> 01:10:31,112 So... 1038 01:10:33,170 --> 01:10:34,810 - Excuse me. - Just take a moment. 1039 01:10:34,810 --> 01:10:36,971 There's water beside you if you need it. 1040 01:10:39,550 --> 01:10:43,720 Did you get to speak to Brenton later that night? 1041 01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:45,415 Yes, but it was very late. 1042 01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,520 Do you recall what he said to you and you to him? 1043 01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:55,253 He said, "Mom, I didn't do it. I didn't do it". 1044 01:10:59,090 --> 01:11:04,160 And he said, "I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail 1045 01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:06,830 "because they made me sign this paper". 1046 01:11:06,830 --> 01:11:08,520 And I said, "What paper?" 1047 01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:11,750 He didn't quite understand because he was so upset himself. 1048 01:11:11,750 --> 01:11:17,240 And I said, "No, you won't". I said, "Brenton, just pray and hold on". 1049 01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:20,004 [MUFFLED SPEECH] 1050 01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:31,070 JUDGE: It may be necessary just to get a complete 1051 01:11:31,070 --> 01:11:34,960 understanding of the conversation, so I overrule the objection. 1052 01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:39,509 So I told him to just pray and hold on, 1053 01:11:39,509 --> 01:11:43,729 and that his dad and I would do anything to get him out of there, 1054 01:11:43,729 --> 01:11:48,279 even mortgaging the house to get him out of this. 1055 01:11:48,279 --> 01:11:49,644 Thank you. 1056 01:11:51,509 --> 01:11:55,399 OK, Miss Stair, you may proceed. -If you need a break, just let us know. 1057 01:11:55,399 --> 01:11:57,509 I just want to clarify a few things, 1058 01:11:57,509 --> 01:12:00,279 that's all I'm going to be asking you about. 1059 01:12:00,279 --> 01:12:04,069 You indicated that the first time you saw your son 1060 01:12:04,069 --> 01:12:06,179 he was still in his bedroom? 1061 01:12:06,179 --> 01:12:08,149 Yes, ma'am. 1062 01:12:08,149 --> 01:12:11,479 And you are basing the time that you saw him on your regular pattern? 1063 01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:13,969 Yeah. -You didn't look at a clock? -No. 1064 01:12:13,969 --> 01:12:16,919 And I think you said... Now, what time was it that you saw him 1065 01:12:16,919 --> 01:12:18,789 in the laundry room? 1066 01:12:18,789 --> 01:12:22,499 It was, um... Well, I was not exactly in the laundry room, 1067 01:12:22,499 --> 01:12:23,999 I met him in the foyer area, 1068 01:12:23,999 --> 01:12:27,329 cos I was coming out of the hallway leading to the foyer area. 1069 01:12:27,329 --> 01:12:29,809 But that's on the way to the laundry room? -Yes. 1070 01:12:29,809 --> 01:12:32,109 OK, where you keep your cleaning supplies? -Yes. 1071 01:12:32,109 --> 01:12:36,045 Your Honour, I don't have any other questions. 1072 01:12:37,689 --> 01:12:41,339 Ma'am, you realise you are under oath. -Yes. 1073 01:12:41,339 --> 01:12:44,199 Is there any question in your mind that your son was home 1074 01:12:44,199 --> 01:12:47,669 between seven and nine in the morning? -No question. 1075 01:12:47,669 --> 01:12:50,651 - I know my son was home. - Thank you, ma'am. 1076 01:13:04,169 --> 01:13:07,559 [INAUDIBLE] 1077 01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:22,089 [INAUDIBLE] 1078 01:13:46,499 --> 01:13:48,699 No, actually, he said he didn't. 1079 01:13:48,699 --> 01:13:50,999 I've got it. 1080 01:13:50,999 --> 01:13:53,909 They knew they didn't have a case. 1081 01:13:53,909 --> 01:14:01,919 The detective went in and he wrote out what he wanted. 1082 01:14:01,919 --> 01:14:04,919 And he is a man who gets what he wants. 1083 01:14:04,919 --> 01:14:09,659 And then he threatened a 15-year-old boy and he poked him 1084 01:14:09,659 --> 01:14:16,838 and he displayed his gun and he got him to sign a piece of paper. 1085 01:14:18,279 --> 01:14:21,279 It was a pathetic piece of paper that made no sense, 1086 01:14:21,279 --> 01:14:26,069 that never has been since that day supported in any way. 1087 01:14:27,569 --> 01:14:33,379 There is no truth in it. But it was close enough for government work. 1088 01:14:33,379 --> 01:14:37,079 So you asked Detective Williams about talking to the defendant. 1089 01:14:37,079 --> 01:14:41,159 Did you do so? -I did. -Was anybody else with you? -No, just me. 1090 01:14:41,159 --> 01:14:43,689 Tell the jury about your conversation. 1091 01:14:43,689 --> 01:14:47,249 I told them had a decision had been made that he would be arrested 1092 01:14:47,249 --> 01:14:50,019 and charged with the murder of Mary Ann Stevens. 1093 01:14:50,019 --> 01:14:52,359 I told him that we would complete the paperwork 1094 01:14:52,359 --> 01:14:55,359 and that he would be incarcerated at the juvenile shelter. 1095 01:14:55,359 --> 01:14:56,769 And what happened then? 1096 01:14:56,769 --> 01:14:59,789 Once I told him about the incarceration, I told him that 1097 01:14:59,789 --> 01:15:02,629 if he wanted to tell his side of the story, that this would be 1098 01:15:02,630 --> 01:15:04,830 his last opportunity to do so. 1099 01:15:04,929 --> 01:15:08,819 At that point, he touched my knee. We were sitting face-to-face. 1100 01:15:08,819 --> 01:15:11,679 He said, "When I talked to Detective Glover, 1101 01:15:11,679 --> 01:15:13,649 "he had told me there was an easy road" - 1102 01:15:13,649 --> 01:15:17,209 and he touched my opposite knee - "and there was a hard road". 1103 01:15:17,209 --> 01:15:19,739 I said, "Well, I wasn't present for that interview 1104 01:15:19,739 --> 01:15:22,229 "and I'm not sure what you're talking about, 1105 01:15:22,229 --> 01:15:25,509 "but as far as an easy road, I don't see one. I only see a hard road, 1106 01:15:25,509 --> 01:15:27,189 "this is a very serious offence". 1107 01:15:27,189 --> 01:15:28,879 With that in mind, I asked him 1108 01:15:28,879 --> 01:15:31,929 if at this time he wanted to present his side of the story. 1109 01:15:31,929 --> 01:15:33,429 He said he did. 1110 01:15:33,429 --> 01:15:36,799 I left the interview room, I told him I had to get the forms. 1111 01:15:36,799 --> 01:15:39,899 I talked to Detective Williams, who was still sitting at his desk. 1112 01:15:39,899 --> 01:15:42,849 I advised him that I was going to take a written statement 1113 01:15:42,849 --> 01:15:45,429 that he had provided me with his side of the story. 1114 01:15:45,429 --> 01:15:48,569 He said, OK. I said, "I need you to go in the monitoring room 1115 01:15:48,569 --> 01:15:52,239 "and monitor the written statement so you can witness the written statement". 1116 01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:54,140 He said, "OK, fine". 1117 01:15:54,239 --> 01:15:57,339 What happened when you went back into the interview room? 1118 01:15:57,339 --> 01:16:01,319 We recorded a written statement on a Sheriff's Office form. 1119 01:16:01,319 --> 01:16:04,879 When we finished the statement, we read it over together, out loud. 1120 01:16:04,879 --> 01:16:08,019 I asked him if he agreed to it, and he said, yes. 1121 01:16:08,019 --> 01:16:10,929 He signs on the bottom of each side of the statement, 1122 01:16:10,929 --> 01:16:14,489 attesting that this is his statement, and at the end, I drew a diagonal line. 1123 01:16:14,489 --> 01:16:17,589 And he signed on that diagonal line as well as on the bottom 1124 01:16:17,589 --> 01:16:20,119 where it says, "Statement made by". 1125 01:16:20,119 --> 01:16:23,349 Your Honour, I don't have any other questions at this time. -OK. 1126 01:16:23,349 --> 01:16:25,897 Mr McGuinness, you may cross-examine. 1127 01:16:27,529 --> 01:16:32,119 Before he came up for cross-examination, there was a break. 1128 01:16:32,119 --> 01:16:36,149 I went out to have a cigarette, and, as I pulled my cigarette out, 1129 01:16:36,149 --> 01:16:41,029 he looked at me - and there is no love lost between us - and he said, 1130 01:16:41,029 --> 01:16:44,681 "Suck down another cancer stick". 1131 01:16:46,459 --> 01:16:51,199 I just looked at him and I said, "I always enjoy a cigarette before sex". 1132 01:16:51,199 --> 01:16:55,795 Cos I wanted him to know... I was going to screw him. 1133 01:16:57,719 --> 01:17:02,219 I don't think the message was lost on him. And I did. 1134 01:17:02,219 --> 01:17:05,499 Now, initially, when you spoke to him, 1135 01:17:05,499 --> 01:17:08,589 this young man was polite to you, is that right? -Yes. 1136 01:17:08,589 --> 01:17:13,369 He was calm. -He was. -He was well mannered. -Yes. -OK. 1137 01:17:13,369 --> 01:17:18,579 And then you and Williams started calling him a liar, didn't you? -No. 1138 01:17:18,579 --> 01:17:23,259 - You never called him a liar? - I told him I thought he was lying. 1139 01:17:23,259 --> 01:17:28,789 That wasn't my question. Did you call him a liar or not, sir? -Indirectly. 1140 01:17:28,789 --> 01:17:31,329 OK. How about directly. Did you do that? 1141 01:17:31,329 --> 01:17:33,999 I don't recall calling him a liar directly. 1142 01:17:33,999 --> 01:17:39,809 - It's not in your notes. - Probably not. I don't recall. 1143 01:17:39,809 --> 01:17:44,314 Does that happen with such frequency you just don't take note of it? 1144 01:17:45,579 --> 01:17:50,499 - Objection, Your Honour. - Overruled. 1145 01:17:50,499 --> 01:17:54,249 Does that happen with such frequency you just don't take note of it, sir? 1146 01:17:54,249 --> 01:17:57,619 What is that? -Calling people liars. -No. 1147 01:17:57,619 --> 01:17:59,499 I liked that. 1148 01:17:59,499 --> 01:18:06,479 I liked the fact that I didn't believe these men 1149 01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:14,359 and I didn't respect them because of what they had done, so... It puts you 1150 01:18:14,359 --> 01:18:19,524 in a fighting mood and makes you want to show them to be what they are. 1151 01:18:22,659 --> 01:18:26,368 This is the first two pages of the statement, OK? -Yes. 1152 01:18:28,139 --> 01:18:33,999 All this information up here, that's in your handwriting? -Yes. -OK. 1153 01:18:33,999 --> 01:18:39,019 And, "I, Brenton Butler, am providing this statement of my own free will, 1154 01:18:39,019 --> 01:18:41,269 "without any threat or promise". 1155 01:18:41,269 --> 01:18:44,549 - He didn't say that, right? - Correct. 1156 01:18:44,549 --> 01:18:49,749 OK. And... "Detective Darnell is writing this statement at my request". 1157 01:18:49,749 --> 01:18:51,637 - He didn't say that, right? - Correct. 1158 01:18:54,299 --> 01:18:58,659 And virtually all of your statements start out the same way, right? 1159 01:18:58,659 --> 01:19:02,779 They do. -Everybody just asks you to write their statements, right? 1160 01:19:02,779 --> 01:19:08,319 - The ones that do. - What percentage would that be? 1161 01:19:08,319 --> 01:19:10,659 I don't know statistics. 1162 01:19:10,659 --> 01:19:13,329 An extraordinarily high percentage, wouldn't it? 1163 01:19:13,329 --> 01:19:15,349 I would say most asked me to write, yes. 1164 01:19:15,349 --> 01:19:18,859 And is that because you have remarkably good penmanship, 1165 01:19:18,859 --> 01:19:20,269 or... Do you know? 1166 01:19:20,269 --> 01:19:24,069 I just always assumed it was that they were too lazy to write it themselves. 1167 01:19:24,069 --> 01:19:27,159 But you knew he could read and write, right? -Sure. 1168 01:19:27,159 --> 01:19:29,789 Didn't you think it might be a good idea to let him... 1169 01:19:29,789 --> 01:19:32,079 If you wanted his side of the story, 1170 01:19:32,079 --> 01:19:34,939 to let him put his own side of the story down? 1171 01:19:34,939 --> 01:19:37,294 - This is his side of the story. - OK. 1172 01:19:38,509 --> 01:19:43,526 "Last night, I got home late and didn't get a chance to eat". 1173 01:19:45,579 --> 01:19:48,639 Did you ever check to see if that was true? -No. 1174 01:19:49,899 --> 01:19:53,549 Did he look malnourished when you were talking to him? -No. 1175 01:19:53,549 --> 01:19:56,789 And Detective Williams was over in the monitoring room, was he? 1176 01:19:56,789 --> 01:19:59,319 Detective Williams was in the monitoring room. 1177 01:19:59,319 --> 01:20:01,989 So he would have heard him say all these things, right? 1178 01:20:01,989 --> 01:20:05,509 I can't testify as to what Detective Williams heard. -As far as you knew, 1179 01:20:05,509 --> 01:20:08,369 the audio hook-up was still working over there, right? -Yes. 1180 01:20:08,369 --> 01:20:09,909 "The woman gave me a mean look 1181 01:20:09,909 --> 01:20:13,289 "and mumbled 'nasty nigger' under her breath". 1182 01:20:13,289 --> 01:20:18,209 As far as you know, did Mr Stevens ever corroborate that in any way? 1183 01:20:18,209 --> 01:20:22,239 I've never talked to Mr Stevens or interviewed him about this case. 1184 01:20:22,239 --> 01:20:24,869 But you've read the report plenty of times, right? 1185 01:20:24,869 --> 01:20:29,556 - I've read what was relevant to me. - Hmm. OK. 1186 01:20:31,099 --> 01:20:36,159 "And as I... raised the gun from my pocket, 1187 01:20:36,159 --> 01:20:38,789 "quickly it went off". 1188 01:20:38,789 --> 01:20:41,089 - Is that something he said? - Yes. 1189 01:20:41,089 --> 01:20:44,089 "I had pulled the trigger unknowingly". 1190 01:20:44,089 --> 01:20:46,429 That was his language, "unknowingly"? 1191 01:20:46,429 --> 01:20:49,809 No, he said he did not know that he had pulled the trigger. 1192 01:20:49,809 --> 01:20:52,849 OK. So you just liked that word better, right? 1193 01:20:52,849 --> 01:20:56,229 This was how I wrote it when we formulated the sentence. 1194 01:20:56,229 --> 01:21:01,809 "I took the woman's money from her wallet and put it in mine". Right? 1195 01:21:01,809 --> 01:21:06,779 Yes. -He said that, right? -That is what he told me, yes. 1196 01:21:06,779 --> 01:21:09,309 "And I went home to feed my dog". 1197 01:21:09,309 --> 01:21:13,949 Did he say why it was so important to feed the dog at that point? 1198 01:21:13,949 --> 01:21:16,709 I never got the impression that was important. 1199 01:21:16,709 --> 01:21:19,669 That was just what he did when he got home. -Mm. 1200 01:21:19,669 --> 01:21:23,279 Why go home if he had completed this armed robbery and killed somebody? 1201 01:21:23,279 --> 01:21:25,249 - Did he say? - No. 1202 01:21:25,249 --> 01:21:27,399 [LAWYER CLEARS THROAT] 1203 01:21:27,399 --> 01:21:32,229 "Later I was walking to Blockbuster Video to get a job application". 1204 01:21:32,229 --> 01:21:33,499 Why did he need a job 1205 01:21:33,499 --> 01:21:37,059 if he had taken up this new career as an armed robber? -I don't know. 1206 01:21:37,059 --> 01:21:40,109 OK. "When the police stopped me, 1207 01:21:40,109 --> 01:21:44,559 "the policeman asked me to come with him to the Ramada Inn, which I did". 1208 01:21:44,559 --> 01:21:46,859 Did he say why he went with the police 1209 01:21:46,859 --> 01:21:49,569 if he had just killed somebody over there? 1210 01:21:49,569 --> 01:21:52,859 He just said he was asked and he complied. 1211 01:21:52,859 --> 01:21:56,839 "Complied" - was that what he said? -No, that is my word. -OK. 1212 01:21:56,839 --> 01:22:01,059 If we could, let's distinguish between your words and his. OK? 1213 01:22:01,059 --> 01:22:05,139 "The man who was with the woman I shot came to the car 1214 01:22:05,139 --> 01:22:08,369 "and told the police I was the one who shot her". 1215 01:22:08,369 --> 01:22:10,719 - Right, he said that? - Yes. 1216 01:22:10,719 --> 01:22:13,949 And he is saying this stuff out loud, right? 1217 01:22:13,949 --> 01:22:18,639 - We are formulating sentences. - Is he saying this stuff out loud? 1218 01:22:18,639 --> 01:22:23,189 Actually, I am saying this and he is agreeing to it. -OK. 1219 01:22:23,189 --> 01:22:25,579 Which of these words did he say out loud 1220 01:22:25,579 --> 01:22:28,859 that could be heard in the monitoring room? 1221 01:22:28,859 --> 01:22:33,079 All of them. -OK. Whilst somebody was in the monitoring room? 1222 01:22:33,079 --> 01:22:34,659 Detective Williams was in there. 1223 01:22:34,660 --> 01:22:37,760 So he would have heard him say all of these words, is that right? 1224 01:22:37,859 --> 01:22:44,059 - The video monitoring room. - Where is the video monitoring room? 1225 01:22:48,869 --> 01:22:51,359 Did you hear him ask Detective Darnell 1226 01:22:51,359 --> 01:22:53,749 to write the statement out for him? 1227 01:22:53,749 --> 01:22:55,719 - No, sir. - Did you hear him say, 1228 01:22:55,719 --> 01:22:59,469 "Last night, I got home late and I didn't get a chance to eat"? 1229 01:22:59,469 --> 01:23:02,049 - Did you hear the defendant say that? - No, sir. 1230 01:23:02,049 --> 01:23:05,239 Did he ever say, "I approached an older white man and woman 1231 01:23:05,239 --> 01:23:06,919 "and asked for spare change"? 1232 01:23:06,919 --> 01:23:09,409 - Did you hear him say that? - No, sir, I did not. 1233 01:23:09,409 --> 01:23:13,859 During that portion of conversation you monitored with Darnell, 1234 01:23:13,859 --> 01:23:18,499 did he ever describe, with any particularity, 1235 01:23:18,499 --> 01:23:21,779 the clothing of the lady he supposedly shot? 1236 01:23:21,779 --> 01:23:23,659 I never heard him say that, sir. 1237 01:23:23,659 --> 01:23:27,698 While monitoring Darnell, did you ever hear him say he shot anybody? -No, sir. 1238 01:23:30,969 --> 01:23:35,469 OK. Now, since that time and in the six months that followed, 1239 01:23:35,469 --> 01:23:37,669 which of the facts asserted in here 1240 01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:40,109 have you been able to verify in any way? 1241 01:23:40,109 --> 01:23:43,215 I have not attempted to verify any of them. 1242 01:23:50,329 --> 01:23:51,359 Thank you, sir. 1243 01:23:51,359 --> 01:23:54,409 # Don't leave me alone, Lord 1244 01:23:54,409 --> 01:23:57,833 # Don't leave me alone 1245 01:24:00,079 --> 01:24:07,719 # While I'm on this tedious journey Oh, Lord 1246 01:24:07,719 --> 01:24:11,749 # I want Jesus 1247 01:24:11,749 --> 01:24:15,651 # To walk with me ## 1248 01:24:25,209 --> 01:24:28,116 We come with thanksgiving in our hearts. -Yes, Lord. 1249 01:24:28,116 --> 01:24:32,996 Today, we lift up your holy name. 1250 01:24:32,996 --> 01:24:35,106 We thank you, Lord. 1251 01:24:35,106 --> 01:24:38,530 Bless us and hold us and keep us. 1252 01:24:38,576 --> 01:24:40,166 In Jesus Christ's name we pray. 1253 01:24:40,166 --> 01:24:41,996 Thank you, Lord. -Amen. 1254 01:24:41,996 --> 01:24:43,452 CONGREGATION: Amen. 1255 01:24:55,916 --> 01:24:59,756 I will probably go to sleep about ten. 1256 01:24:59,756 --> 01:25:03,326 I'll probably get up about 2:30. 1257 01:25:03,326 --> 01:25:05,436 Then I will take all the notes 1258 01:25:05,436 --> 01:25:08,056 I have made over the weeks and months 1259 01:25:08,056 --> 01:25:11,719 and I will start a distillation process, you know? 1260 01:25:12,796 --> 01:25:16,116 Throwing out the things that I think either are not compelling 1261 01:25:16,116 --> 01:25:20,196 or not important enough to use any portion of my hour and a half on. 1262 01:25:20,196 --> 01:25:24,226 Boiling it down to the facts that I think work best for us 1263 01:25:24,226 --> 01:25:26,526 and then trying to couch those facts 1264 01:25:26,526 --> 01:25:29,336 in a way that will be compelling to the jury, 1265 01:25:29,336 --> 01:25:31,315 that will ring true with them. 1266 01:25:36,416 --> 01:25:39,416 Are these things we have heard worthy of belief? 1267 01:25:39,416 --> 01:25:42,186 Are they consistent with what other witnesses say? 1268 01:25:42,186 --> 01:25:44,856 Are they consistent with the physical evidence? 1269 01:25:44,856 --> 01:25:48,046 Are the things the detective said true or false 1270 01:25:48,046 --> 01:25:49,826 and, if so, how do we tell? 1271 01:25:49,826 --> 01:25:54,656 This jury tomorrow could well come back against me. 1272 01:25:54,656 --> 01:25:57,986 When I say against me, I take it personally. 1273 01:25:57,986 --> 01:26:00,556 The man - or boy, in this case - 1274 01:26:00,556 --> 01:26:03,559 who will suffer is Brenton Butler. 1275 01:26:04,736 --> 01:26:09,606 He could well suffer with the loss of liberty for the rest of his life. 1276 01:26:09,606 --> 01:26:12,846 Um... that is a very frightening thing. 1277 01:26:12,846 --> 01:26:15,895 I believe, in my heart of hearts, that he is innocent. 1278 01:26:17,626 --> 01:26:20,206 I am not allowed to say that to the jury. 1279 01:26:20,206 --> 01:26:23,246 I can't tell them that I believe that. 1280 01:26:23,246 --> 01:26:26,113 I can tell them that the evidence shows that. 1281 01:26:28,126 --> 01:26:32,156 And they may or may not agree with my view of the evidence, and, 1282 01:26:32,156 --> 01:26:34,181 if they disagree, 1283 01:26:37,316 --> 01:26:39,102 I don't know what I will do. 1284 01:26:40,176 --> 01:26:45,102 This is not a loss I will be able to take easily. 1285 01:26:48,466 --> 01:26:53,816 Ladies and gentlemen, the defendant Brenton Butler shot and killed 1286 01:26:53,816 --> 01:26:59,676 Mary Anne Stevens during an armed robbery on May 7th of this year. 1287 01:26:59,676 --> 01:27:04,686 The State must prove the material elements of this charge 1288 01:27:04,686 --> 01:27:09,326 beyond a reasonable doubt, and I submit that we have. 1289 01:27:09,326 --> 01:27:13,786 We have an eyewitness, a person who was right there 1290 01:27:13,786 --> 01:27:17,536 and watched the defendant, Brenton Butler, 1291 01:27:17,536 --> 01:27:21,146 shoot his wife right in front of his eyes. 1292 01:27:21,146 --> 01:27:23,816 Four to five seconds... 1293 01:27:23,816 --> 01:27:27,986 it is an eternity when facing a man with a gun. 1294 01:27:27,986 --> 01:27:32,156 You recall Miss Finnell counting. Well, I tell you it's this: 1295 01:27:32,156 --> 01:27:35,396 1,000, 2,000, 1296 01:27:35,396 --> 01:27:40,736 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, 1297 01:27:40,736 --> 01:27:45,616 looking directly at the man holding a gun and shooting your wife. 1298 01:27:45,616 --> 01:27:49,696 Mr Stevens is a man who is 65 years old. 1299 01:27:49,696 --> 01:27:52,366 He told you about all of his life experiences, 1300 01:27:52,366 --> 01:27:56,446 and I submit to you that when he looked at that person, 1301 01:27:56,446 --> 01:28:00,616 and then he saw the defendant two and a half hours later, 1302 01:28:00,616 --> 01:28:04,696 that he identified him as he said, "I am sure of it. 1303 01:28:04,696 --> 01:28:08,206 "I would not put an innocent man in jail". 1304 01:28:08,206 --> 01:28:11,256 Now, let's talk about the alibi. 1305 01:28:11,256 --> 01:28:15,756 The murder of Mrs Stevens occurred around 7:30 in the morning 1306 01:28:15,756 --> 01:28:18,056 on Sunday the 7th. 1307 01:28:18,056 --> 01:28:20,626 The defendant lives less than one mile away. 1308 01:28:20,626 --> 01:28:24,946 What does it take? Less than five minutes to get away from the scene 1309 01:28:24,946 --> 01:28:27,756 and then five or ten more minutes to get home. 1310 01:28:27,756 --> 01:28:30,806 We're not talking about a very long distance. 1311 01:28:30,806 --> 01:28:33,056 Now, according to his mother, 1312 01:28:33,056 --> 01:28:35,866 between 7:00 and 7:15 she hears 1313 01:28:35,866 --> 01:28:37,696 the defendant in the bathroom, 1314 01:28:37,696 --> 01:28:42,006 and then around eight he is coming from the laundry room. 1315 01:28:42,006 --> 01:28:45,056 Think about that. That is according to his mother. 1316 01:28:45,056 --> 01:28:47,726 Sometime around eight o'clock - 1317 01:28:47,726 --> 01:28:50,916 30 minutes after Mrs Stevens was shot. 1318 01:28:50,916 --> 01:28:54,056 Let's talk about the confession. 1319 01:28:54,056 --> 01:28:57,336 The defendant says he never made those statements. 1320 01:28:57,336 --> 01:29:01,836 Not that they are not voluntary. He never made them. 1321 01:29:01,836 --> 01:29:05,536 That is what the defendant claims about this. 1322 01:29:05,536 --> 01:29:10,836 Now, I tell you, the claims in this case are outrageous. 1323 01:29:10,836 --> 01:29:13,136 They are horrible. They are horrendous. 1324 01:29:13,136 --> 01:29:18,056 To claim that these police officers beat this 15-year-old 1325 01:29:18,056 --> 01:29:22,136 until he DIDN'T confess but finally signed the written confession, 1326 01:29:22,136 --> 01:29:25,696 they are horrible. If you believe those after this trial, 1327 01:29:25,696 --> 01:29:28,506 I urge you to call the media, 1328 01:29:28,506 --> 01:29:32,966 call the FBI, call anybody. They are outrageous. 1329 01:29:32,966 --> 01:29:38,396 But I submit to you, to believe those allegations 1330 01:29:38,396 --> 01:29:43,796 you need to believe in a conspiracy worthy of Oliver Stone. 1331 01:29:43,796 --> 01:29:46,746 Look at this person. 1332 01:29:46,746 --> 01:29:49,276 This is a person who confessed, 1333 01:29:49,276 --> 01:29:53,496 who told his side of the story, as Detective Glover talked about. 1334 01:29:53,496 --> 01:29:57,756 Mr McGuinness is going to have an opportunity to talk to you, 1335 01:29:57,756 --> 01:30:02,356 and I want you, as he talks, to think about the things I have said. 1336 01:30:02,356 --> 01:30:04,886 But I submit to you that first, 1337 01:30:04,886 --> 01:30:08,826 if you just look at Mr Stevens's identification, 1338 01:30:08,826 --> 01:30:10,936 right there, 1339 01:30:10,936 --> 01:30:15,666 the one eyewitness positively identified the defendant. 1340 01:30:15,666 --> 01:30:19,516 Identified him by his face. 1341 01:30:19,516 --> 01:30:23,966 And that alone proves our case beyond a reasonable doubt. 1342 01:30:23,966 --> 01:30:25,046 Thank you. 1343 01:30:26,266 --> 01:30:28,416 Winston Churchill used to say 1344 01:30:28,416 --> 01:30:31,186 that the quality of a nation's civilisation 1345 01:30:31,186 --> 01:30:34,696 can be measured by the methods its police use 1346 01:30:34,696 --> 01:30:36,391 in enforcement of criminal laws. 1347 01:30:37,696 --> 01:30:41,166 I suggest to you, by that yardstick, 1348 01:30:41,166 --> 01:30:43,186 we're in deep trouble. 1349 01:30:43,186 --> 01:30:46,416 Ask yourselves what you know about this investigation. 1350 01:30:46,416 --> 01:30:49,936 Are you satisfied? Can you be satisfied? 1351 01:30:49,936 --> 01:30:54,726 Can you ratify and endorse and condone what happened in this case? 1352 01:30:56,076 --> 01:30:58,186 I think, based on the evidence, not. 1353 01:30:58,186 --> 01:31:00,906 The police had a problem. 1354 01:31:00,906 --> 01:31:04,466 At this motel, there was a murder. 1355 01:31:04,466 --> 01:31:08,826 It was a stranger murder. They are the most difficult to solve. 1356 01:31:08,826 --> 01:31:12,296 It requires diligent police work. 1357 01:31:12,296 --> 01:31:15,626 It requires attention to detail. 1358 01:31:15,626 --> 01:31:19,236 It requires an appreciation of the forensic evidence. 1359 01:31:19,236 --> 01:31:21,436 It requires careful analysis. 1360 01:31:21,436 --> 01:31:23,786 It didn't happen here. 1361 01:31:23,786 --> 01:31:26,036 But what did the police do? 1362 01:31:26,036 --> 01:31:29,596 In Casablanca, they had the line, "Round up the usual suspects". 1363 01:31:29,596 --> 01:31:31,516 What they did, 1364 01:31:31,516 --> 01:31:34,576 is they went looking for black people. 1365 01:31:36,206 --> 01:31:40,746 And two and one half hours after this shooting, 1366 01:31:40,746 --> 01:31:44,036 a 15-year-old boy was on his way 1367 01:31:44,036 --> 01:31:46,146 to get a job application. 1368 01:31:46,146 --> 01:31:50,546 A young man that works. That has worked in the past. 1369 01:31:50,546 --> 01:31:53,646 That pays for his own clothes and his CDs. 1370 01:31:53,646 --> 01:31:56,546 That the State would have you believe, at age 15, 1371 01:31:56,546 --> 01:31:59,786 he gets up, has his yoghurt, decides to go kill somebody, 1372 01:31:59,786 --> 01:32:02,076 kills them, 1373 01:32:02,076 --> 01:32:05,036 comes home and feeds the dog. 1374 01:32:05,036 --> 01:32:08,226 Somebody who has never, in his lifetime, 1375 01:32:08,226 --> 01:32:09,906 been seen by anybody with a gun. 1376 01:32:09,906 --> 01:32:13,616 Now, Mr Stevens made an identification. 1377 01:32:13,616 --> 01:32:16,376 He made an identification of a man 1378 01:32:16,376 --> 01:32:21,256 four inches shorter than the person he'd described, 1379 01:32:21,256 --> 01:32:23,269 five to ten years younger... 1380 01:32:24,766 --> 01:32:26,745 ...who was... 1381 01:32:31,516 --> 01:32:35,555 ...wearing a shirt where the absolute most noticeable thing about it... 1382 01:32:37,896 --> 01:32:39,906 ...is the Nautica logo. 1383 01:32:39,906 --> 01:32:41,596 The man who wielded that gun 1384 01:32:41,596 --> 01:32:44,316 would have had to have the gun at least at chest height 1385 01:32:44,316 --> 01:32:47,836 to get the angle of entry that the doctor described. 1386 01:32:47,836 --> 01:32:50,596 The gun would have been right there. 1387 01:32:50,596 --> 01:32:53,266 This logo cannot be missed 1388 01:32:53,266 --> 01:32:56,372 from 2.5 feet looking at someone, if it's there. 1389 01:32:57,486 --> 01:33:00,066 But that very same identification 1390 01:33:00,066 --> 01:33:02,836 created some real problems for the police. 1391 01:33:02,836 --> 01:33:06,635 Their only eyewitness is wholeheartedly committed 1392 01:33:06,635 --> 01:33:10,947 to an identification that if they were going to make a case... 1393 01:33:12,355 --> 01:33:14,695 ...they had to make that come true. 1394 01:33:14,695 --> 01:33:18,313 And they have the television crews out there already. 1395 01:33:19,435 --> 01:33:23,235 They had a case they knew was going to get a lot of attention, 1396 01:33:23,235 --> 01:33:27,825 because you had a white victim, a black shooter, 1397 01:33:27,825 --> 01:33:29,895 a tourist in Florida. 1398 01:33:31,995 --> 01:33:37,155 And that media attention, the racial aspects of it... 1399 01:33:37,155 --> 01:33:40,625 the pressures on the police... 1400 01:33:40,625 --> 01:33:44,845 I think coloured everything that happened later that day. 1401 01:33:44,845 --> 01:33:49,955 Why was everybody distancing themselves from Glover in the woods? 1402 01:33:49,955 --> 01:33:55,302 Here is the fellow who claims he has the man who knows where the gun is. 1403 01:33:56,655 --> 01:33:58,675 They're going to the woods. 1404 01:33:58,675 --> 01:34:01,575 And Glover went deep in that woods. 1405 01:34:01,575 --> 01:34:05,845 He went out of earshot and eyesight of everybody. 1406 01:34:05,845 --> 01:34:07,715 Without any lights. 1407 01:34:07,715 --> 01:34:10,491 But he's looking for a gun, he says. 1408 01:34:13,995 --> 01:34:19,205 And he punched a 15-year-old boy in the gut, 1409 01:34:19,205 --> 01:34:20,325 twice. 1410 01:34:20,325 --> 01:34:21,883 And once in the eye. 1411 01:34:24,315 --> 01:34:27,355 Think about why Glover was brought in. 1412 01:34:27,355 --> 01:34:29,815 What does the evidence tell us his most distinguished achievement was 1413 01:34:29,816 --> 01:34:32,416 before his father became sheriff, 1414 01:34:32,515 --> 01:34:34,975 and suddenly, they realised his potential as a homicide detective. 1415 01:34:34,976 --> 01:34:37,476 Cos he sure wasn't one before then. 1416 01:34:37,575 --> 01:34:40,775 Before that, his most noteworthy achievement was hitting people 1417 01:34:40,776 --> 01:34:42,776 and hitting them well. 1418 01:34:42,875 --> 01:34:47,705 Objection, Your Honour! May I approach? -You may. 1419 01:34:47,705 --> 01:34:50,663 Will our reporter please join us? 1420 01:34:53,655 --> 01:34:58,592 You may have noticed, when Detective Glover was on the stand... 1421 01:35:00,315 --> 01:35:01,964 he's a right-handed man. 1422 01:35:04,435 --> 01:35:07,165 And when a right-handed man... 1423 01:35:10,585 --> 01:35:12,268 ...hits a man he's facing, 1424 01:35:14,475 --> 01:35:16,124 which side is he going to hit? 1425 01:35:17,985 --> 01:35:22,595 We know that Brenton Butler went into police custody unmarred 1426 01:35:22,596 --> 01:35:24,596 and unscratched. 1427 01:35:25,905 --> 01:35:28,157 We know he didn't emerge that way. 1428 01:35:30,275 --> 01:35:32,595 We spent hours talking to witnesses 1429 01:35:32,596 --> 01:35:35,796 who would reluctantly give up bits of the truth, 1430 01:35:35,895 --> 01:35:38,615 a little bit at a time. 1431 01:35:38,615 --> 01:35:40,071 But you now know 1432 01:35:42,175 --> 01:35:45,255 what Detective Williams should have known, had he bothered to check, 1433 01:35:45,256 --> 01:35:46,856 the morning of May 7th. 1434 01:35:46,955 --> 01:35:51,085 And I believe it reveals something very frightening. 1435 01:35:51,085 --> 01:35:52,165 There is still 1436 01:35:52,165 --> 01:35:53,565 a man out there. 1437 01:35:53,565 --> 01:35:56,895 That man is 20-25 years of age. 1438 01:35:56,895 --> 01:35:59,845 He is probably about six feet in height. 1439 01:35:59,845 --> 01:36:02,705 He has a collar on his shirt. 1440 01:36:02,705 --> 01:36:05,755 He still has a functioning gun. 1441 01:36:05,755 --> 01:36:11,995 And because no diligent effort was made in the investigation in this case, 1442 01:36:11,995 --> 01:36:15,835 likely some other citizen will come to harm, 1443 01:36:15,835 --> 01:36:20,340 because the work wasn't done when and how it should have been done. 1444 01:36:22,075 --> 01:36:25,545 I ask you each individually and collectively, 1445 01:36:25,546 --> 01:36:28,346 tacked with fidelity to your oaths, 1446 01:36:28,445 --> 01:36:32,154 to well and truly try the issues in this case. 1447 01:36:33,885 --> 01:36:36,045 And I suggest that if you do, 1448 01:36:36,046 --> 01:36:41,146 this will truly be a thanksgiving this week for Chevy Drive. 1449 01:36:41,245 --> 01:36:43,679 I thank you for your kind attention. 1450 01:36:47,805 --> 01:36:51,605 We want everybody to be fresh, we want everybody to be clear of mind. 1451 01:36:51,605 --> 01:36:55,215 So what we'll do in just a moment is we'll recess for the evening. 1452 01:36:55,215 --> 01:36:58,685 We'll come back. I will for sure have everything ready to go. 1453 01:36:58,685 --> 01:37:02,621 So you are released. We'll see you at 9am outside courtroom number four. 1454 01:37:54,555 --> 01:37:59,525 We have all our trust in the Lord and if it weren't for the Lord, 1455 01:37:59,525 --> 01:38:03,185 we don't know where we would have been by now. 1456 01:38:03,185 --> 01:38:06,939 And so it's no mistake. The Lord don't make mistakes. 1457 01:38:08,055 --> 01:38:12,185 And so we're going to be here. We're here, 1458 01:38:12,185 --> 01:38:16,165 and the Lord's going to be in that courtroom. He gon' be in that courtroom. 1459 01:38:16,165 --> 01:38:20,765 And you talking about when they allow you to come home, 1460 01:38:20,765 --> 01:38:22,705 when you are set free - 1461 01:38:22,706 --> 01:38:26,006 you going to talk about some hallelujah good time in there? 1462 01:38:26,105 --> 01:38:29,665 You going to be shouting? They gonna run us out. 1463 01:38:29,665 --> 01:38:31,775 They going to run us out. 1464 01:38:31,775 --> 01:38:35,015 Cos when you get all these Christians together and they going 1465 01:38:35,016 --> 01:38:37,216 to be having a joyous good time. 1466 01:38:37,315 --> 01:38:40,182 They going to be thanking and praising the Lord. 1467 01:38:43,315 --> 01:38:46,685 Brenton Leonard Butler, the defendant in this case, 1468 01:38:46,685 --> 01:38:48,737 has been accused of the crimes 1469 01:38:48,738 --> 01:38:52,738 of murder in the first degree and armed robbery. 1470 01:38:53,815 --> 01:38:57,185 If you find Mary Ann Stevens was killed by Brenton Leonard Butler, 1471 01:38:57,185 --> 01:38:58,985 you will then consider 1472 01:38:58,986 --> 01:39:01,586 the circumstances surrounding the killing 1473 01:39:01,685 --> 01:39:06,465 in deciding if the killing was first degree murder, 1474 01:39:06,465 --> 01:39:09,095 or was murder in the second degree, 1475 01:39:09,096 --> 01:39:12,796 murder in the third degree, manslaughter, 1476 01:39:12,895 --> 01:39:15,063 or whether the killing was excusable 1477 01:39:15,064 --> 01:39:18,664 or resulted from justifiable use of deadly force. 1478 01:39:20,395 --> 01:39:23,415 A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, 1479 01:39:23,416 --> 01:39:27,416 a speculative, imaginary, or forced doubt. 1480 01:39:27,515 --> 01:39:29,795 A reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the defendant 1481 01:39:29,796 --> 01:39:32,296 may arise from the evidence, 1482 01:39:32,395 --> 01:39:36,285 conflict in the evidence, or the lack of evidence. 1483 01:39:36,285 --> 01:39:41,295 If you have a reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant not guilty. 1484 01:39:41,295 --> 01:39:45,846 If you have no reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant guilty. 1485 01:40:18,895 --> 01:40:24,197 [MURMURING PRAYERS] 1486 01:40:45,235 --> 01:40:46,702 ALL: Amen. 1487 01:41:03,996 --> 01:41:06,285 If you're here for the Brenton Butler case, 1488 01:41:06,285 --> 01:41:09,195 if you would please re-enter the courtroom quietly. 1489 01:41:09,195 --> 01:41:11,356 Your jury has reached a verdict. 1490 01:41:16,505 --> 01:41:18,935 We have a verdict, if you want to come over. 1491 01:41:18,936 --> 01:41:21,236 And let Sue or anybody else who's interested know. 1492 01:41:21,335 --> 01:41:22,791 Bye. 1493 01:41:25,885 --> 01:41:29,309 MAN: What did it mean? Did he tell you 45 minutes? 1494 01:41:31,465 --> 01:41:35,165 Means they've either found for us or against us. 1495 01:41:35,165 --> 01:41:36,905 I'm hoping it's for us. 1496 01:41:53,215 --> 01:41:56,086 Is everyone who is outside and following the trial here 1497 01:41:56,087 --> 01:41:58,787 and had an opportunity to be present? 1498 01:41:58,886 --> 01:42:01,098 Mr Stevens is here, and the Butler family is here. 1499 01:42:01,099 --> 01:42:03,699 Are we ready to proceed, counsel? 1500 01:42:07,506 --> 01:42:10,191 OK, then. Let's bring the jury back in. 1501 01:42:28,975 --> 01:42:32,875 - Mr Young, are you the foreperson? - Yes, I am. 1502 01:42:32,875 --> 01:42:35,125 - Has the jury reached a verdict? - Yes, we have. 1503 01:42:35,125 --> 01:42:37,635 I'm going to hand the verdict forms to our clerk 1504 01:42:37,636 --> 01:42:39,336 and ask that she publish the verdicts. 1505 01:42:39,435 --> 01:42:41,635 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 1506 01:42:41,636 --> 01:42:44,636 I want you to please stand and hearken to your voting. 1507 01:42:44,735 --> 01:42:49,375 In the circuit court of the Florida justice circuit in Duval County, Florida, 1508 01:42:49,375 --> 01:42:52,955 case number 2563 5CF, division CRG, 1509 01:42:52,956 --> 01:42:57,056 the State of Florida versus Brenton Leonard Butler, 1510 01:42:57,155 --> 01:43:01,185 verdict as to count 1, we the jury find the defendant not guilty. 1511 01:43:01,185 --> 01:43:03,575 [CHEERING AND WHOOPING] 1512 01:43:03,575 --> 01:43:05,525 I ask you, please, everyone... 1513 01:43:05,526 --> 01:43:07,926 please maintain decorum in the courtroom. Thank you. 1514 01:43:08,025 --> 01:43:11,255 Case number 2563 5CF, division CRG, 1515 01:43:11,256 --> 01:43:14,256 the State of Florida versus Brenton Leonard Butler, 1516 01:43:14,355 --> 01:43:18,386 verdict as to count 2, we the jury find the defendant not guilty. 1517 01:43:18,386 --> 01:43:21,525 So say we all at Jacksonville, Duval County Florida. 1518 01:43:21,525 --> 01:43:25,885 Signed by the foreperson, dated November 21st, 2000. 1519 01:43:25,885 --> 01:43:29,635 OK. Does either counsel wish the jury to be polled? -PROSECUTOR: No. 1520 01:43:29,635 --> 01:43:32,215 OK. Ladies and gentlemen, please be seated. 1521 01:43:32,215 --> 01:43:35,925 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your time and patience in this matter. 1522 01:43:35,925 --> 01:43:39,206 I hope you all come away from this with a sense that you really have 1523 01:43:39,206 --> 01:43:41,685 done something to contribute to the community, 1524 01:43:41,685 --> 01:43:43,565 to the criminal justice system. 1525 01:43:43,565 --> 01:43:47,176 I hope that you have some pride in the sense of the process 1526 01:43:47,176 --> 01:43:48,726 and pride in the way 1527 01:43:48,727 --> 01:43:52,227 that you have contributed to that and participated in our system, 1528 01:43:52,326 --> 01:43:55,796 which I think is the best legal system in the world. 1529 01:44:00,345 --> 01:44:02,767 [DIALOGUE INDISTINCT] 1530 01:44:04,936 --> 01:44:07,375 [INDISTINCT] 1531 01:44:07,375 --> 01:44:08,649 Yeah. 1532 01:44:11,686 --> 01:44:13,517 You did good work. 1533 01:44:25,096 --> 01:44:26,745 Take care, gentlemen. Thank you. 1534 01:44:28,375 --> 01:44:30,866 Here he comes. 1535 01:44:32,975 --> 01:44:34,988 [INDISTINCT] 1536 01:44:38,546 --> 01:44:40,662 [WEEPING] 1537 01:45:05,695 --> 01:45:07,375 I am very happy 1538 01:45:07,375 --> 01:45:10,845 that a good young man has been returned to his family for Thanksgiving. 1539 01:45:17,645 --> 01:45:22,056 Yeah! Not guilty, not guilty, not guilty! Yeah, yay! 1540 01:45:22,056 --> 01:45:24,399 Not guilty! 1541 01:45:27,775 --> 01:45:30,027 [INDISTINCT] 1542 01:45:56,456 --> 01:45:59,176 There is still a man out there. 1543 01:45:59,176 --> 01:46:01,756 That man is 20-25 years of age. 1544 01:46:01,756 --> 01:46:04,486 He is probably about six feet in height. 1545 01:46:06,772 --> 01:46:09,084 He still has a functioning gun 1546 01:46:09,085 --> 01:46:13,585 because the work wasn't done when and how it should have been done. 1547 01:46:21,783 --> 01:46:26,043 Stay right here for your news. This is ABC 25. 1548 01:46:26,043 --> 01:46:29,893 Well, he was a high school student accused of murder, tried and acquitted. 1549 01:46:29,893 --> 01:46:33,353 Now, a year later, police say they had the wrong guy. 1550 01:46:33,353 --> 01:46:36,063 Our reporter Winston Dean is at the Ramada Hotel, 1551 01:46:36,064 --> 01:46:37,664 where this crime happened. 1552 01:46:37,763 --> 01:46:40,852 Winston, tell us more about the man who put it all together. 1553 01:46:40,852 --> 01:46:44,143 We understand it wasn't anyone in law enforcement? 1554 01:46:44,143 --> 01:46:46,153 You are right about that, Allen. 1555 01:46:46,154 --> 01:46:49,154 And critics of what happened to Brenton Butler say the scary part is, 1556 01:46:49,253 --> 01:46:51,443 the person who may have solved this crime 1557 01:46:51,444 --> 01:46:53,044 doesn't wear a badge or carry a gun. 1558 01:46:53,143 --> 01:46:56,052 It was a lawyer whose salary we as taxpayers have to pay - 1559 01:46:56,053 --> 01:46:58,053 someone who never gave up. 1560 01:46:58,152 --> 01:47:01,012 In this case, Brenton Butler's public defender. 1561 01:47:01,012 --> 01:47:06,040 The first week of January, we got a tip from a public defender client. 1562 01:47:08,093 --> 01:47:13,482 Told us that he'd been in a cell of a man Juan Curtis. 1563 01:47:13,482 --> 01:47:17,703 This fellow, Juan Curtis, had admitted being the shooter, 1564 01:47:17,703 --> 01:47:20,193 shooting Mrs Stevens in the face, 1565 01:47:20,193 --> 01:47:23,140 because Mrs Stevens had thrown a cup of coffee on him 1566 01:47:23,141 --> 01:47:25,541 during the course of the robbery. 1567 01:47:29,753 --> 01:47:32,983 After the trial, the original trial in this case, 1568 01:47:32,983 --> 01:47:37,818 we retrieved the purse from Mr Stevens 1569 01:47:39,503 --> 01:47:41,473 and we processed for evidence 1570 01:47:41,473 --> 01:47:45,642 all parts of the purse that had not been previously processed. 1571 01:47:45,642 --> 01:47:51,262 We have discovered a fingerprint that belongs to Juan Curtis, 1572 01:47:51,262 --> 01:47:53,753 the shooter in the offence. 1573 01:48:08,613 --> 01:48:09,693 Juan Curtis. 1574 01:48:09,693 --> 01:48:13,812 Mr Curtis, you're charged with murder and armed robbery. 1575 01:48:13,812 --> 01:48:17,143 Mr Curtis, you want me to appoint an attorney to represent you? 1576 01:48:17,143 --> 01:48:18,553 Sign that form. 1577 01:48:21,783 --> 01:48:24,802 You meet the criteria for appointment of counsel, 1578 01:48:24,803 --> 01:48:28,103 and I appoint Refik Eler to represent you, 1579 01:48:28,202 --> 01:48:33,603 and he will be in touch with you at the Duval County Jail. 1580 01:48:33,603 --> 01:48:34,956 Ronald Page? 1581 01:48:40,393 --> 01:48:46,353 POLICE RADIO: 'It's gonna be a skinny black male wearing dark shorts, shirt, 1582 01:48:46,353 --> 01:48:48,923 'had on a hat'. 1583 01:48:48,923 --> 01:48:51,443 'Latest update is a black male, 1584 01:48:51,444 --> 01:48:55,344 20-25 years of age with skinny legs, about 6'2...' 1585 01:48:55,443 --> 01:48:57,923 'Could be him, could be anybody'.