1
00:00:30,127 --> 00:00:32,060
<i>Got him in the bottom belly.</i>

2
00:00:32,062 --> 00:00:34,529
<i>Okay, now up.</i>

3
00:00:34,531 --> 00:00:35,530
<i>Now down.</i>

4
00:00:38,535 --> 00:00:40,101
<i>Up.</i>

5
00:00:40,103 --> 00:00:41,936
<i>Down.</i>

6
00:00:41,938 --> 00:00:43,037
<i>- Wow.
- Okay?</i>

7
00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:44,338
<i>- Got it.
- Alright, good.</i>

8
00:00:44,340 --> 00:00:45,672
-<i> Got it.</i>

9
00:00:54,549 --> 00:00:56,248
<i>Now it's off.</i>

10
00:00:56,250 --> 00:00:57,415
<i>Got it on.</i>

11
00:01:01,186 --> 00:01:02,618
<i>Got it off.</i>

12
00:01:04,054 --> 00:01:05,720
<i>It's coming down again.</i>

13
00:01:05,722 --> 00:01:08,622
<i>- That is some change.
I don't know.</i>

14
00:01:08,624 --> 00:01:10,690
<i>- I'm thinking,
let him get in the sun</i>

15
00:01:10,692 --> 00:01:12,558
<i>so you can get
a good picture of it.</i>

16
00:01:14,695 --> 00:01:16,861
<i>- Got him in the bottom belly.</i>

17
00:01:16,863 --> 00:01:18,195
<i>Okay, now up.</i>

18
00:01:33,077 --> 00:01:35,444
-<i> Identification is completed.</i>

19
00:01:45,654 --> 00:01:47,453
-I'm gonna take this with us.

20
00:01:47,455 --> 00:01:49,788
<i>It demos with doors.
Here we go.</i>

21
00:01:51,958 --> 00:01:53,958
Okay, so now we've got that.

22
00:01:55,728 --> 00:01:59,362
We got the innards here that
I can show you how this works.

23
00:01:59,364 --> 00:02:01,364
And we will go from there.

24
00:02:04,702 --> 00:02:06,262
Hey, guys.
- Hey.

25
00:02:07,637 --> 00:02:09,557
- We started this
with five guys..

26
00:02:10,472 --> 00:02:12,371
lost money
for eight straight years

27
00:02:12,373 --> 00:02:14,272
made a lot of mistakes
along the way..

28
00:02:14,274 --> 00:02:16,707
but we learned a lot too.

29
00:02:16,709 --> 00:02:18,842
And as you see, suddenly

30
00:02:18,844 --> 00:02:20,844
five guys starting a company..

31
00:02:20,846 --> 00:02:22,846
<i>developed this to
where you're selling hundreds</i>

32
00:02:22,848 --> 00:02:24,547
<i>of thousands of Taser devices.</i>

33
00:02:24,549 --> 00:02:25,948
This is the American dream.

34
00:02:25,950 --> 00:02:28,417
You take a product that you
think is gonna save lives.

35
00:02:28,419 --> 00:02:29,951
You build it up

36
00:02:29,953 --> 00:02:32,320
and you have all that
elbow grease, blood

37
00:02:32,322 --> 00:02:34,889
sweat and tears, belief in it..

38
00:02:34,891 --> 00:02:36,390
workers that work
their tail off.

39
00:02:36,392 --> 00:02:38,525
And then now, suddenly
you're making this thing

40
00:02:38,527 --> 00:02:41,828
that's being worn
by 15,000 police departments.

41
00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:43,896
That's when you know
you've really hit the strides.

42
00:03:06,953 --> 00:03:09,353
<i>To the outside observer,
we're using electricity.</i>

43
00:03:09,355 --> 00:03:10,620
<i>That scares people.</i>

44
00:03:10,622 --> 00:03:12,355
<i>We're shocking somebody
in the minds of people.</i>

45
00:03:12,357 --> 00:03:14,790
<i>That scares people.</i>
<i>We're using something that's</i>
<i>foreign.</i>

46
00:03:14,792 --> 00:03:16,191
<i>We've been trained
as kids to, uh</i>

47
00:03:16,193 --> 00:03:18,226
<i>to be afraid of electricity,
and yet..</i>

48
00:03:18,228 --> 00:03:20,394
<i>medical science has used
electricity for benefits</i>

49
00:03:20,396 --> 00:03:23,196
<i>from, from physical therapy to</i>

50
00:03:23,198 --> 00:03:24,964
<i>uh, inner cardiac defibrillators</i>

51
00:03:24,966 --> 00:03:27,232
<i>to pace makers,
to helping the brain.</i>

52
00:03:27,234 --> 00:03:28,466
<i>There's all sorts of things</i>

53
00:03:28,468 --> 00:03:30,835
<i>electricity can be used
safely every day.</i>

54
00:03:30,837 --> 00:03:32,703
It can also be used
to cause great harm

55
00:03:32,705 --> 00:03:34,337
when it's used
at great levels of power

56
00:03:34,339 --> 00:03:35,838
that we're nowhere near.

57
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,106
- So, again now, welcome
everybody, I'm Rick Smith

58
00:03:38,108 --> 00:03:40,675
and I'm gonna start off by
just giving you a basic update

59
00:03:40,677 --> 00:03:42,009
on, uh, some of the numbers.

60
00:03:42,011 --> 00:03:44,344
<i>We are now in over
a 100 countries.</i>

61
00:03:44,346 --> 00:03:47,046
<i>We've got 16,400 agencies.</i>

62
00:03:47,048 --> 00:03:49,448
<i>Uh, over a half a million
weapons now deployed.</i>

63
00:03:49,450 --> 00:03:52,751
<i>Over 300 medical studies
have now been completed.</i>

64
00:03:52,753 --> 00:03:56,121
<i>We estimate there've been
over 75,000 incidents</i>

65
00:03:56,123 --> 00:03:57,789
<i>where Tasers have been used
to save people</i>

66
00:03:57,791 --> 00:04:00,491
<i>from potential death
or serious injury.</i>

67
00:04:00,493 --> 00:04:02,493
- Very few companies
can wake up in the morning

68
00:04:02,495 --> 00:04:05,229
and say, we've changed
the world. But we have.

69
00:04:05,231 --> 00:04:07,998
We have revolutionized the way
use of force is being done

70
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,599
and we are gonna
continue to do that.

71
00:04:09,601 --> 00:04:10,866
<i>- Now we believe
this is actually</i>

72
00:04:10,868 --> 00:04:12,767
<i>a conservative estimate
when you consider..</i>

73
00:04:12,769 --> 00:04:14,935
-<i> Well, Rick and Tom Smith</i>
<i>are the founders</i>
<i>of the company</i>

74
00:04:14,937 --> 00:04:16,703
<i>and there are three others
who were hired on</i>

75
00:04:16,705 --> 00:04:17,870
<i>subsequently thereafter.</i>

76
00:04:17,872 --> 00:04:19,371
<i>The motivating factor was</i>

77
00:04:19,373 --> 00:04:21,606
<i>there's gotta be a better way
to let technology</i>

78
00:04:21,608 --> 00:04:24,775
<i>incapacitate someone
without causing death.</i>

79
00:04:24,777 --> 00:04:26,676
<i>- The reason my brother and I
started our company is</i>

80
00:04:26,678 --> 00:04:28,678
we had two friends get shot
and killed in this

81
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,547
in a... a crazy
road rage incident

82
00:04:31,549 --> 00:04:33,982
and we looked at that and said,
why isn't there a better way

83
00:04:33,984 --> 00:04:37,051
to stop somebody without having
to resort to lethal force?

84
00:04:37,053 --> 00:04:39,253
We grew up watching
"Star Wars" and "Star Trek"

85
00:04:39,255 --> 00:04:42,022
and said, why can't we make
the non-lethal phaser?

86
00:04:42,024 --> 00:04:43,923
And that's what led us
to start the company.

87
00:04:43,925 --> 00:04:45,991
- Got the CEO
from TASER International

88
00:04:45,993 --> 00:04:47,559
Rick Smith here to join us

89
00:04:47,561 --> 00:04:49,427
to talk about the new Taser.

90
00:04:49,429 --> 00:04:50,561
Rick, it's great to have you.
Welcome.

91
00:04:50,563 --> 00:04:51,662
-Thanks. Good to be here.

92
00:04:51,664 --> 00:04:53,130
<i>- Uh, let's talk about
what this does.</i>

93
00:04:53,132 --> 00:04:55,332
Now, it's very low amperage,
so it's not harmful, right?

94
00:04:55,334 --> 00:04:56,599
- Right.
Won't affect the heart

95
00:04:56,601 --> 00:04:57,733
won't affect the pacemaker

96
00:04:57,735 --> 00:04:59,935
but it causes your body
to lock up.

97
00:04:59,937 --> 00:05:01,469
It's like, uh,
take a computer network

98
00:05:01,471 --> 00:05:03,471
imagine putting that
spike of electricity into it

99
00:05:03,473 --> 00:05:05,473
it's gonna send
everything haywire.

100
00:05:05,475 --> 00:05:07,007
We do the same thing
inside the human body

101
00:05:07,009 --> 00:05:08,441
so the brain can't tell
the arms, legs

102
00:05:08,443 --> 00:05:10,042
and muscles what to do.

103
00:05:10,044 --> 00:05:11,676
And if you can't move,
you can't attack anyone.

104
00:05:11,678 --> 00:05:12,810
-All the research says

105
00:05:12,812 --> 00:05:14,678
there is absolutely
no evidence that there's

106
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,313
any permanent damage or harm
at all from this thing, right?

107
00:05:17,315 --> 00:05:19,882
- That's right, we've hit over
5000 law enforcement volunteers

108
00:05:19,884 --> 00:05:22,584
<i>and they've hit over 1200
bad guys in the field with it</i>

109
00:05:22,586 --> 00:05:23,918
<i>and the wires,
it's like mini jumper cables.</i>

110
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:25,052
-Right.

111
00:05:25,054 --> 00:05:26,553
- We launch it out,
we make the attachment.

112
00:05:26,555 --> 00:05:28,321
<i>and, uh, well,
it's descriptive. It...</i>

113
00:05:28,323 --> 00:05:29,722
- What's to stop
a... a... a perpetrator

114
00:05:29,724 --> 00:05:30,923
from breaking those wires off?

115
00:05:30,925 --> 00:05:31,990
-Uh, the 50,000 volts

116
00:05:31,992 --> 00:05:33,758
that's going through his body.

117
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,827
<i>- By Tom Smith's count,
more than 500,000</i>

118
00:05:36,829 --> 00:05:39,663
<i>law enforcement officers
in the United States</i>

119
00:05:39,665 --> 00:05:41,464
<i>now carry Tasers.</i>

120
00:05:41,466 --> 00:05:43,666
<i>He and his brother Rick
have taken what began</i>

121
00:05:43,668 --> 00:05:45,567
<i>as a backyard experiment</i>

122
00:05:45,569 --> 00:05:48,336
<i>and built it into</i>
<i>a policeman's</i>
<i>weapon of choice.</i>

123
00:05:48,338 --> 00:05:49,637
-If we can just, temporarily

124
00:05:49,639 --> 00:05:51,205
take away control of their body

125
00:05:51,207 --> 00:05:52,639
<i>and get them under control</i>

126
00:05:52,641 --> 00:05:54,974
<i>it's about as non-violent
as you could get.</i>

127
00:06:15,162 --> 00:06:16,628
-The first guy I Tasered

128
00:06:16,630 --> 00:06:18,496
it worked like a charm,
you know?

129
00:06:18,498 --> 00:06:21,632
He dropped to the ground,
he was sorry.

130
00:06:21,634 --> 00:06:23,934
Uh, he thought I shot him
with a pistol

131
00:06:23,936 --> 00:06:25,435
because the Tasers
were so brand-new

132
00:06:25,437 --> 00:06:26,936
I don't think
he even realized we had them.

133
00:06:26,938 --> 00:06:28,671
It was gonna get ugly,
and his kid's there

134
00:06:28,673 --> 00:06:29,838
and his kid's crying

135
00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:32,740
and it just ended it
right there. Ended it.

136
00:06:32,742 --> 00:06:34,241
And I thought, wow, that was
cool, you know?

137
00:06:34,243 --> 00:06:35,475
The guy had, you know

138
00:06:35,477 --> 00:06:37,477
he had a couple
of little probe marks in him

139
00:06:37,479 --> 00:06:39,779
but that was the extent
of his injuries.

140
00:06:39,781 --> 00:06:42,014
<i>You know, we enjoy
the excitement of the job.</i>

141
00:06:42,016 --> 00:06:44,082
The adrenaline
that it gives us, but

142
00:06:44,084 --> 00:06:47,485
there's no pleasure in beating
the crap out of somebody.

143
00:06:47,487 --> 00:06:49,720
That's not fun.

144
00:06:49,722 --> 00:06:52,689
<i>The Tasers to me were a</i>

145
00:06:52,691 --> 00:06:54,190
<i>a means to get away from that.</i>

146
00:06:54,192 --> 00:06:57,493
It got to the point where you'd
pull the Taser out its cartridge

147
00:06:57,495 --> 00:06:58,694
and the guy would give up.

148
00:06:58,696 --> 00:07:01,163
And that was actually,
it was cool.

149
00:07:01,165 --> 00:07:02,531
You know?

150
00:07:02,533 --> 00:07:04,032
He... he wouldn't run
because he thought

151
00:07:04,034 --> 00:07:05,466
he was gonna get Tasered.

152
00:07:05,468 --> 00:07:06,667
He wouldn't fight
because he thought

153
00:07:06,669 --> 00:07:09,169
he was gonna get Tasered.

154
00:07:09,171 --> 00:07:10,503
<i>- When you pepper spray someone</i>

155
00:07:10,505 --> 00:07:12,338
depending on your sensitivity

156
00:07:12,340 --> 00:07:14,306
it can affect you
from 10 minutes

157
00:07:14,308 --> 00:07:16,174
to 2 hours up to 6 hours.

158
00:07:16,176 --> 00:07:19,644
Whereas the Taser as deployed
is a five-second cycle.

159
00:07:19,646 --> 00:07:21,345
If you take that person
into custody

160
00:07:21,347 --> 00:07:23,180
at the end of that
5-second cycle, it's done.

161
00:07:23,182 --> 00:07:25,815
There are no follow-up actions,
there's no adverse effect

162
00:07:25,817 --> 00:07:27,750
no medical care, no treatment.

163
00:07:27,752 --> 00:07:29,551
Um, you take the probes out

164
00:07:29,553 --> 00:07:31,119
and the person goes to jail.

165
00:07:31,121 --> 00:07:32,720
- So, no one ever
breaks a finger

166
00:07:32,722 --> 00:07:34,388
no one ever..

167
00:07:34,390 --> 00:07:36,890
hurts their shoulder,
no one ever twists a knee

168
00:07:36,892 --> 00:07:38,858
because he had the Taser to use.

169
00:07:38,860 --> 00:07:40,826
And I think that was the thought

170
00:07:40,828 --> 00:07:43,528
at the beginning, and I think,
you know, it was welcomed

171
00:07:43,530 --> 00:07:45,863
and... then the experiment began.

172
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,533
-Hut! Set your gear!

173
00:07:49,535 --> 00:07:51,902
Hoo!

174
00:07:51,904 --> 00:07:54,070
<i>- The police academy
in Manhattan turns out</i>

175
00:07:54,072 --> 00:07:55,204
<i>New York's finest.</i>

176
00:07:55,206 --> 00:07:56,738
<i>However, to some New Yorkers</i>

177
00:07:56,740 --> 00:08:00,108
<i>the police are anything but.</i>

178
00:08:00,110 --> 00:08:03,144
<i>The most common explanation
advanced for police brutality</i>

179
00:08:03,146 --> 00:08:05,212
<i>is the terrible stress
of police work.</i>

180
00:08:05,214 --> 00:08:06,713
<i>Exposed to violence daily</i>

181
00:08:06,715 --> 00:08:09,015
<i>some officers themselves
can turn violent.</i>

182
00:08:11,085 --> 00:08:12,651
<i>- The violence here
comes on the heels</i>

183
00:08:12,653 --> 00:08:14,185
<i>of a racial confrontation</i>

184
00:08:14,187 --> 00:08:16,587
<i>in which one black youth
was killed.</i>

185
00:08:16,589 --> 00:08:19,689
<i>- We have to be ready
to respond to violence.</i>

186
00:08:30,431 --> 00:08:31,797
-<i> Last year, in this country</i>

187
00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:33,498
<i>there were 8000 lawsuits</i>

188
00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:35,499
<i>alleging police brutality.</i>

189
00:08:37,169 --> 00:08:38,601
-<i> Stay down!</i>

190
00:08:41,505 --> 00:08:42,937
<i>- Get off!
- Stay down!</i>

191
00:08:42,939 --> 00:08:44,438
<i>- Pepper spray
doesn't work on everyone.</i>

192
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:45,839
<i>Uh, everyone's senses
are different</i>

193
00:08:45,841 --> 00:08:48,141
<i>everyone's, uh,
bodies are different.</i>

194
00:08:48,143 --> 00:08:50,443
-<i> Get his arm!</i>

195
00:08:50,445 --> 00:08:51,644
<i>- It's gonna be
the officer's job</i>

196
00:08:51,646 --> 00:08:53,946
<i>to get this person
under control.</i>

197
00:08:53,948 --> 00:08:56,448
<i>There was, uh, certainly a need</i>

198
00:08:56,450 --> 00:08:59,717
<i>for somethin' in between.</i>

199
00:08:59,719 --> 00:09:02,052
<i>- For some departments,
the answer in part</i>

200
00:09:02,054 --> 00:09:05,088
<i>may come from non-lethal
weapons still being perfected.</i>

201
00:09:05,090 --> 00:09:08,724
<i>Like a so-called glue gun,
that shoots out a sticky foam</i>

202
00:09:08,726 --> 00:09:11,326
<i>or a laser dazzler,
which disorients a suspect.</i>

203
00:09:14,831 --> 00:09:17,431
<i>- Into the debate over whether
to make handguns illegal</i>

204
00:09:17,433 --> 00:09:19,633
enter a new
space-age weapon that stuns

205
00:09:19,635 --> 00:09:21,167
<i>but does... does
not kill the victim.</i>

206
00:09:23,104 --> 00:09:26,871
- We're now selling it
to the public..

207
00:09:26,873 --> 00:09:29,306
and we feel that it is a very

208
00:09:29,308 --> 00:09:32,042
suitable replacement
for the gun.

209
00:09:32,044 --> 00:09:35,145
<i>- The idea of electric weapons
has been around a long time.</i>

210
00:09:35,147 --> 00:09:36,779
<i>Cover, a space scientist</i>

211
00:09:36,781 --> 00:09:39,214
<i>remembered reading
about it as a boy</i>

212
00:09:39,216 --> 00:09:42,383
<i>not in a text book, but in
Tom Swift's "Electric Rifle"</i>

213
00:09:42,385 --> 00:09:44,384
<i>written in 1911.</i>

214
00:09:47,188 --> 00:09:49,922
<i>- Officers trying
to take a man into custody</i>

215
00:09:49,924 --> 00:09:51,089
<i>they used a Taser.</i>

216
00:09:52,425 --> 00:09:54,324
<i>The Taser should've dropped
him long enough</i>

217
00:09:54,326 --> 00:09:57,093
<i>for the officers
to take control. It didn't.</i>

218
00:09:57,095 --> 00:09:59,662
- From stun guns to Tasers,
they can be effective

219
00:09:59,664 --> 00:10:02,031
but have never been
totally reliable

220
00:10:02,033 --> 00:10:04,800
against focused
combative attackers.

221
00:10:08,438 --> 00:10:10,805
<i>- Well, first we had to take
Jack's, you know</i>

222
00:10:10,807 --> 00:10:13,374
<i>terrific idea
that was way ahead of its time</i>

223
00:10:13,376 --> 00:10:14,708
<i>and we had to do
several things too.</i>

224
00:10:14,710 --> 00:10:16,409
<i>We had to improve
the triggering mechanism</i>

225
00:10:16,411 --> 00:10:19,512
we had to improve, uh,
the accuracy of it.

226
00:10:19,514 --> 00:10:21,413
-<i> Now, ideally..</i>

227
00:10:21,415 --> 00:10:22,714
<i>this will..</i>

228
00:10:22,716 --> 00:10:24,916
<i>give us a little bit
of wind. Let her rip.</i>

229
00:10:27,119 --> 00:10:29,953
<i>Alright, as you can see,
already we're..</i>

230
00:10:29,955 --> 00:10:32,655
<i>Well, you need hair like me.
We're blowing.</i>

231
00:10:32,657 --> 00:10:34,189
<i>Hey, I want to show
my hair blowing here.</i>

232
00:10:34,191 --> 00:10:36,431
<i>I wanna give an idea
how much this is blowing.</i>

233
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,160
You see, it's plenty of wind

234
00:10:45,767 --> 00:10:48,367
<i>Not a problem at all.
In the wind.</i>

235
00:10:49,837 --> 00:10:50,936
Yeah.

236
00:11:00,179 --> 00:11:02,112
<i>Well, the Air Taser
was our first effort</i>

237
00:11:02,114 --> 00:11:03,546
<i>and it was
a terrific effort, but</i>

238
00:11:03,548 --> 00:11:04,980
the problem that we had
with that product

239
00:11:04,982 --> 00:11:07,215
is it didn't have
the stopping power to stop

240
00:11:07,217 --> 00:11:09,217
a truly motivated individual.

241
00:11:09,219 --> 00:11:10,918
<i>- We want you to
attack the camera.</i>

242
00:11:13,656 --> 00:11:15,722
<i>- We could see
motivated individuals</i>

243
00:11:15,724 --> 00:11:17,023
<i>fight through the effects.</i>

244
00:11:17,025 --> 00:11:18,124
<i>In other words, it was sort of</i>

245
00:11:18,126 --> 00:11:19,391
<i>a pain compliance tool.</i>

246
00:11:20,961 --> 00:11:22,660
-Come get me. Come get me.

247
00:11:22,662 --> 00:11:24,328
- Alright..
Alright.

248
00:11:28,734 --> 00:11:30,533
-<i> Okay..</i>

249
00:11:30,535 --> 00:11:32,368
<i>Here we go.
I want you to get focused.</i>

250
00:11:32,370 --> 00:11:34,203
<i>Get focused.
Get focused.</i>

251
00:11:38,441 --> 00:11:40,040
-Whoo!

252
00:11:42,277 --> 00:11:43,576
-<i> Now, the M26</i>

253
00:11:43,578 --> 00:11:46,412
<i>was the proverbial home run
of a product.</i>

254
00:11:46,414 --> 00:11:48,213
<i>We knew that
if we didn't have a tool</i>

255
00:11:48,215 --> 00:11:50,281
<i>that stopped
a motivated individual</i>

256
00:11:50,283 --> 00:11:51,382
<i>we weren't gonna be successful.</i>

257
00:11:51,384 --> 00:11:52,649
- You think, uh,
there's any possibility

258
00:11:52,651 --> 00:11:53,750
you could've
attacked through that?

259
00:11:53,752 --> 00:11:55,184
-Oh, hell no.

260
00:11:57,488 --> 00:11:58,620
-What the fuck! What the fuck!

261
00:11:58,622 --> 00:12:00,154
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck!

262
00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:04,424
<i>- The M26 stopped
motivated individuals</i>

263
00:12:04,426 --> 00:12:06,092
<i>I mean, clearly.</i>

264
00:12:06,094 --> 00:12:07,359
<i>That was like the Holy Grail.</i>

265
00:12:07,361 --> 00:12:08,860
<i>So we knew
we were on to something</i>

266
00:12:08,862 --> 00:12:10,461
<i>and the word got out</i>

267
00:12:10,463 --> 00:12:12,196
<i>spread through
law enforcement community</i>

268
00:12:12,198 --> 00:12:13,664
<i>and we would fly in
and do demonstrations</i>

269
00:12:13,666 --> 00:12:15,165
<i>with law enforcement.</i>

270
00:12:15,167 --> 00:12:17,867
<i>And we'd say, look, bring
your toughest guy, the stud.</i>

271
00:12:17,869 --> 00:12:19,335
<i>Those guys,
they can take pepper spray</i>

272
00:12:19,337 --> 00:12:21,670
<i>they can take...
uh, stun guns and then</i>

273
00:12:21,672 --> 00:12:22,937
<i>you know, hit themselves with it</i>

274
00:12:22,939 --> 00:12:24,271
<i>and they could fight through.</i>

275
00:12:24,273 --> 00:12:26,006
<i>We would hit these guys
with a Taser</i>

276
00:12:26,008 --> 00:12:27,440
<i>drop them to the ground.</i>

277
00:12:34,781 --> 00:12:35,780
-Taser! Taser!

278
00:12:39,618 --> 00:12:41,751
- Try! Try!
- <i>Come on, fight it!</i>

279
00:12:41,753 --> 00:12:42,852
-Holy shit!

280
00:12:44,188 --> 00:12:47,289
Holy shit! Fuck!

281
00:12:47,291 --> 00:12:48,523
<i>- Okay, you can fight right now.</i>

282
00:12:48,525 --> 00:12:50,358
- No, I don't wanna fight!
I'm good.

283
00:12:53,329 --> 00:12:55,562
Motherfucker.

284
00:12:55,564 --> 00:12:57,230
I just came in my pants.

285
00:12:58,666 --> 00:13:00,832
<i>- They'd be coherent instantly
after the effect.</i>

286
00:13:00,834 --> 00:13:02,733
And they'd look at us
with this dazed look of

287
00:13:02,735 --> 00:13:05,168
"Holy cow, you stopped me."

288
00:13:05,170 --> 00:13:07,303
- Couldn't do a thing.
Helpless. Absolutely helpless.

289
00:13:07,305 --> 00:13:08,837
- If I meet the guy
that can stand up to that

290
00:13:08,839 --> 00:13:11,639
I'll turn in my badge
and gun and become a florist.

291
00:13:12,775 --> 00:13:15,641
- You alright?
- Oh, baby!

292
00:13:17,645 --> 00:13:19,444
<i>- When those agencies
adopted, they then</i>

293
00:13:19,446 --> 00:13:21,946
would go to test
and evaluation field studies.

294
00:13:21,948 --> 00:13:23,480
And that's where you
put the rubber to the road.

295
00:13:29,119 --> 00:13:31,352
<i>- Set that down.
- Set it down! Set it down!</i>

296
00:13:31,354 --> 00:13:32,786
<i>- Set that down, dude.
- Set it down!</i>

297
00:13:32,788 --> 00:13:33,953
-<i> Set that, set that down.</i>

298
00:13:35,189 --> 00:13:37,222
-<i> Last chance, set it down.</i>

299
00:13:39,025 --> 00:13:40,924
<i>- In other news this morning,
a Taser gun</i>

300
00:13:40,926 --> 00:13:43,660
<i>helps to end a three-hour
standoff in Longmont</i>

301
00:13:43,662 --> 00:13:45,161
<i>and it's all caught on tape.</i>

302
00:13:45,163 --> 00:13:46,362
-<i> Across the country</i>

303
00:13:46,364 --> 00:13:49,465
<i>cops call this
Taser, the revolution.</i>

304
00:13:49,467 --> 00:13:51,433
<i>- Issuing Tasers,
Miami Police Department</i>

305
00:13:51,435 --> 00:13:53,134
<i>went for 20 months</i>

306
00:13:53,136 --> 00:13:55,769
<i>without discharging
a single bullet at a citizen.</i>

307
00:13:55,771 --> 00:13:58,304
-<i> Well, it gives us</i>
<i>another option</i>
<i>besides the lethal force.</i>

308
00:13:58,306 --> 00:14:00,386
<i>And in this case,
it worked perfectly.</i>

309
00:14:01,475 --> 00:14:03,541
<i>- The media picked up on that,
eventually</i>

310
00:14:03,543 --> 00:14:07,044
<i>and we became very successful
with this tool that was using</i>

311
00:14:07,046 --> 00:14:09,213
<i>neural muscular incapacitation.</i>

312
00:14:11,116 --> 00:14:14,784
-<i> No other company</i>
<i>in the world has it,</i>
<i>the technology.</i>

313
00:14:14,786 --> 00:14:18,520
<i>TASER International is in</i>
<i>the business</i>
<i>of protecting life</i>

314
00:14:18,522 --> 00:14:20,522
<i>and protecting truth.</i>

315
00:14:27,429 --> 00:14:28,461
<i>- What say we bring out the guys</i>

316
00:14:28,463 --> 00:14:29,695
that brought us all those laughs

317
00:14:29,697 --> 00:14:31,930
and most kick-ass devices
in law enforcement

318
00:14:31,932 --> 00:14:33,631
our founders,
Rick and Tom Smith.

319
00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:39,735
<i>- Rick and I would like to thank</i>

320
00:14:39,737 --> 00:14:41,203
<i>all of the TASER employees</i>

321
00:14:41,205 --> 00:14:42,604
<i>from our board of directors</i>

322
00:14:42,606 --> 00:14:44,906
<i>all the way down to everybody
on the production line</i>

323
00:14:44,908 --> 00:14:47,408
and all of you as instructors
that deliver the training

324
00:14:47,410 --> 00:14:49,643
that's required
for this to be successful.

325
00:14:49,645 --> 00:14:51,077
Thank you from us.

326
00:14:51,079 --> 00:14:53,112
Uh, enjoy the conference,
and, uh

327
00:14:53,114 --> 00:14:54,346
thank you for taking your time

328
00:14:54,348 --> 00:14:55,914
to spend it with us
here this morning.

329
00:15:04,723 --> 00:15:06,923
<i>- Good morning.
We're on the record.</i>

330
00:15:06,925 --> 00:15:08,457
<i>This is media number 1</i>

331
00:15:08,459 --> 00:15:11,259
<i>of the videotaped deposition
of Rick Smith.</i>

332
00:15:11,261 --> 00:15:14,495
<i>- Um... I'm gonna be asking you
a series of questions</i>

333
00:15:14,497 --> 00:15:17,531
<i>uh, about your company
and about your products.</i>

334
00:15:17,533 --> 00:15:19,499
<i>My objective is to get</i>

335
00:15:19,501 --> 00:15:22,268
<i>your version of events,
your testimony</i>

336
00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:25,004
<i>uh, for you to say
what you mean to say</i>

337
00:15:25,006 --> 00:15:29,507
<i>um... as clearly as possible
on the record.</i>

338
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:32,676
<i>Mr. Smith, what is
your current occupation?</i>

339
00:15:32,678 --> 00:15:35,145
- I'm the
Chief Executive Officer

340
00:15:35,147 --> 00:15:37,881
of TASER International,
Incorporated.

341
00:15:37,883 --> 00:15:41,451
<i>- And was that owned by you
and your brother, Rick Smith?</i>

342
00:15:41,453 --> 00:15:42,952
- He and I started it,
and then our

343
00:15:42,954 --> 00:15:45,020
my, uh, parents were involved.

344
00:15:46,056 --> 00:15:48,056
The first board meeting
was at our

345
00:15:48,058 --> 00:15:51,059
dining room table
at my parents' house.

346
00:15:51,061 --> 00:15:53,628
- Well, at that point in time,
we were..

347
00:15:53,630 --> 00:15:56,297
we were breaking new ground.

348
00:15:56,299 --> 00:15:59,333
- Our mission was,
was basically to protect life.

349
00:15:59,335 --> 00:16:00,767
I mean,
it's basically the mission

350
00:16:00,769 --> 00:16:02,902
that sort of survives today

351
00:16:02,904 --> 00:16:05,504
uh, to... develop a product

352
00:16:05,506 --> 00:16:06,738
that people can
defend themselves

353
00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:08,773
without taking a life.

354
00:16:08,775 --> 00:16:10,508
<i>- Well, you're gonna
sign this, sir.</i>

355
00:16:10,510 --> 00:16:14,277
-<i> No, I'm not.</i>
<i>I'm not signing anything,</i>
<i>officer.</i>

356
00:16:14,279 --> 00:16:16,279
-Okay. Hop out of the car.

357
00:16:20,718 --> 00:16:23,051
Turn around and put your hands
behind your back.

358
00:16:23,053 --> 00:16:25,820
Turn around, put your hands
behind your back, now!

359
00:16:25,822 --> 00:16:27,154
- What the heck's
wrong with you?

360
00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:29,256
-Turn around! Turn around!

361
00:16:29,258 --> 00:16:30,657
- What the heck's
wrong with you?

362
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,694
-Down on the ground!

363
00:16:34,696 --> 00:16:35,695
Down on the ground!

364
00:16:38,466 --> 00:16:40,999
Stay down! Stay down!

365
00:16:41,001 --> 00:16:43,134
Stay in the car!

366
00:16:43,136 --> 00:16:44,935
Turn around! Face down!

367
00:16:44,937 --> 00:16:48,004
Face down! Face down!

368
00:16:48,006 --> 00:16:49,538
Face down!
Put your hands behind your back!

369
00:16:49,540 --> 00:16:52,841
<i>- Around the country
there is increasing concern</i>

370
00:16:52,843 --> 00:16:55,310
<i>that some police
are Taser-happy.</i>

371
00:16:55,312 --> 00:16:56,744
<i>- So there's the device
and then there's</i>

372
00:16:56,746 --> 00:16:58,712
<i>the, the person holding it.</i>

373
00:16:58,714 --> 00:17:00,547
-Because cops figure

374
00:17:00,549 --> 00:17:03,016
hey, no muss, no fuss.
Just pull the Taser.

375
00:17:03,018 --> 00:17:05,752
- How do you deal with the
lazy cop syndrome, they call it?

376
00:17:05,754 --> 00:17:07,620
- We spend a lot of time
in our training

377
00:17:07,622 --> 00:17:09,788
uh, of law enforcement officers

378
00:17:09,790 --> 00:17:12,056
trying to avoid, what we call,
"Taser Dependency."

379
00:17:12,058 --> 00:17:13,590
<i>That's our technology.
It's like our baby.</i>

380
00:17:13,592 --> 00:17:16,559
<i>And when it gets misused it,
it does hit you in the gut.</i>

381
00:17:22,531 --> 00:17:24,731
<i>- An 86-year-old disabled
grandmother</i>

382
00:17:24,733 --> 00:17:27,667
<i>is suing after police
Tased her, cuffed her</i>

383
00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:30,436
<i>and put her in a psych ward
for six days.</i>

384
00:17:30,438 --> 00:17:32,738
<i>About one week
after learning from CNN</i>

385
00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:34,906
<i>that police Tasered
a 6-year-old boy</i>

386
00:17:34,908 --> 00:17:36,774
<i>at one of its elementary schools</i>

387
00:17:36,776 --> 00:17:39,243
<i>the district said "No more".</i>

388
00:17:39,245 --> 00:17:41,678
<i>In a letter sent to
Miami Dade's police chief</i>

389
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,347
<i>the school superintendent
asked that police, quote</i>

390
00:17:44,349 --> 00:17:46,349
"Refrain from deploying Tasers

391
00:17:46,351 --> 00:17:49,518
against elementary
school students."

392
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,453
- So that leads us
to our last call question

393
00:17:51,455 --> 00:17:54,923
should police be able
to use Tasers on children?

394
00:17:54,925 --> 00:17:58,760
Give us a call
at 1-800-807-2620.

395
00:17:58,762 --> 00:18:00,661
<i>- You gotta use common sense
first and foremost</i>

396
00:18:00,663 --> 00:18:02,663
but we've got clear guidelines

397
00:18:02,665 --> 00:18:04,231
on when use of force
can be used.

398
00:18:04,233 --> 00:18:06,433
That's gotta be met, bar none.

399
00:18:06,435 --> 00:18:08,468
Otherwise, we've got a clear
civil rights violation.

400
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:11,704
So whether they're 33 or 10

401
00:18:11,706 --> 00:18:14,273
firearm in that hand,
an edge weapon..

402
00:18:14,275 --> 00:18:16,742
age is really not much
of a... an issue at that point.

403
00:18:16,744 --> 00:18:18,944
It can weigh into the thinking..

404
00:18:18,946 --> 00:18:20,378
but that pregnant woman
with a gun

405
00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:23,247
is just as dangerous
as that ex-con that's 25

406
00:18:23,249 --> 00:18:24,547
coming out of prison.

407
00:18:27,351 --> 00:18:29,818
<i>- What we have
in this situation is Tony</i>

408
00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:31,219
<i>he's gonna come at me.</i>

409
00:18:31,221 --> 00:18:33,754
But the fact that
he has a lethal weapon

410
00:18:33,756 --> 00:18:35,889
in the space of just a few feet

411
00:18:35,891 --> 00:18:37,991
he could actually kill me.

412
00:18:37,993 --> 00:18:41,660
And, right now, I have a less
than lethal option in my hand.

413
00:18:49,434 --> 00:18:51,867
- We have yet to see the guy
who can take this

414
00:18:51,869 --> 00:18:53,435
and just walk through it.

415
00:18:53,437 --> 00:18:54,836
<i>- We're giving the bullet
an overhaul.</i>

416
00:18:54,838 --> 00:18:56,337
We think 50 years from now

417
00:18:56,339 --> 00:18:58,459
the world's gonna be
a very different place.

418
00:19:09,017 --> 00:19:11,484
<i>- It can go from
you having a cup of coffee</i>

419
00:19:11,486 --> 00:19:13,419
<i>uh, driving down 14 Mile Road</i>

420
00:19:13,421 --> 00:19:16,088
to... 30 seconds later

421
00:19:16,090 --> 00:19:18,323
getting a call and standing
in front of some crazy guy

422
00:19:18,325 --> 00:19:21,225
with a knife walking down
the street naked. You know?

423
00:19:21,227 --> 00:19:23,126
I mean, and... and now

424
00:19:23,128 --> 00:19:24,660
I hope getting back
to your mindset

425
00:19:24,662 --> 00:19:26,128
I hope you have
a clear head today

426
00:19:26,130 --> 00:19:27,896
because now you
have to make a decision

427
00:19:27,898 --> 00:19:29,998
and you have to make it now.
You know?

428
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,399
You can't let this guy hurt you

429
00:19:31,401 --> 00:19:33,567
and you can't let him walk down
the street, you know

430
00:19:33,569 --> 00:19:36,736
uh, a... and possibly
hurt somebody else, you know?

431
00:19:36,738 --> 00:19:39,171
So you have to make
a split decision.

432
00:19:39,173 --> 00:19:41,673
<i>And, uh, like Ned said, you
have to always get it right.</i>

433
00:19:41,675 --> 00:19:42,940
<i>We're not..</i>

434
00:19:42,942 --> 00:19:44,608
<i>we're not given
a whole lot of leeway</i>

435
00:19:44,610 --> 00:19:47,644
<i>for being wrong out here.</i>

436
00:19:47,646 --> 00:19:49,012
<i>- I always found that
interesting where</i>

437
00:19:49,014 --> 00:19:51,748
you can argue a case in... court

438
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:53,883
and the judge can..

439
00:19:53,885 --> 00:19:56,685
come back in 90 days
with an opinion.

440
00:19:56,687 --> 00:19:59,354
Whereas, you know,
we go to a situation

441
00:19:59,356 --> 00:20:01,389
and you have to decide right now

442
00:20:01,391 --> 00:20:03,157
if you're gonna
make an arrest or

443
00:20:03,159 --> 00:20:05,659
if, uh, you know,
someone decides to resist

444
00:20:05,661 --> 00:20:07,727
what level of force
you're gonna use.

445
00:20:07,729 --> 00:20:09,729
And if it's improper

446
00:20:09,731 --> 00:20:12,565
then you have to deal
with the consequences.

447
00:20:17,604 --> 00:20:19,804
<i>- I don't even know...
- What language do you speak?</i>

448
00:20:19,806 --> 00:20:21,872
<i>- He basically
doesn't speak English..</i>

449
00:20:21,874 --> 00:20:24,307
-<i> Russian? Russian?</i>

450
00:20:29,246 --> 00:20:32,013
-<i> Polize! Polize!</i>

451
00:20:32,015 --> 00:20:34,115
<i>- May I Taser him?
- Yes.</i>

452
00:20:34,117 --> 00:20:36,217
- against the wall?

453
00:20:36,219 --> 00:20:37,551
-Are you.. Sir?

454
00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:42,254
- He speaks Russian
and that's it. No English.

455
00:21:04,642 --> 00:21:05,907
Get down! Get down!

456
00:21:09,745 --> 00:21:10,744
-You got to Taser him.

457
00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:17,316
-Put your hands on your back!

458
00:21:40,335 --> 00:21:41,967
-He's unconscious.

459
00:21:41,969 --> 00:21:43,435
<i>Looks like he's breathing.
- Did you call an ambulance?</i>

460
00:21:43,437 --> 00:21:44,969
<i>- Hi. Richmond RCP.
- Hi.</i>

461
00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:46,437
-<i> Can we have your code 3 to</i>

462
00:21:46,439 --> 00:21:48,305
<i>the International
Terminal arrivals area?</i>

463
00:21:48,307 --> 00:21:50,841
<i>- Okay. Yeah, it looks like
we have upgraded to code 3.</i>

464
00:21:50,843 --> 00:21:52,409
<i>So you're saying that
he is unconscious now.</i>

465
00:21:52,411 --> 00:21:53,843
<i>- Yeah, yeah,
they're asking for code 3.</i>

466
00:21:53,845 --> 00:21:55,477
-<i> Still breathing?</i>

467
00:21:55,479 --> 00:21:58,439
-<i> Uh, no, not this time,</i>
<i>sorry.</i>
-<i> Okay, no problem.</i>

468
00:22:12,294 --> 00:22:15,028
<i>- The last moments
of Robert Dziekanski</i>

469
00:22:15,030 --> 00:22:17,096
<i>captured by a bystander.</i>

470
00:22:17,098 --> 00:22:20,299
<i>After arriving from Poland
on his first ever plane ride</i>

471
00:22:20,301 --> 00:22:22,734
<i>he's been waiting
10 hours for his mother</i>

472
00:22:22,736 --> 00:22:24,969
<i>who told him to wait
in the baggage area.</i>

473
00:22:24,971 --> 00:22:27,338
<i>But she couldn't go in there,
couldn't get a message to him</i>

474
00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:31,408
<i>and finally went home after
being told he never arrived.</i>

475
00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:34,244
<i>We showed the tape to retired
Superintendent Ron Foyle</i>

476
00:22:34,246 --> 00:22:37,413
<i>a 33-year veteran
of the Vancouver Police.</i>

477
00:22:37,415 --> 00:22:39,848
- I don't know why it
ever became a police incident.

478
00:22:39,850 --> 00:22:41,549
It... it didn't seem
that he made

479
00:22:41,551 --> 00:22:43,584
any threatening gestures
toward them.

480
00:22:43,586 --> 00:22:46,320
<i>- So, what were the options
for police Sunday morning?</i>

481
00:22:46,322 --> 00:22:48,689
<i>The Mounties say
pepper spray wasn't ideal</i>

482
00:22:48,691 --> 00:22:51,324
<i>because the area was crowded
with travelers</i>

483
00:22:51,326 --> 00:22:54,393
<i>and suggest the baton
may have been too violent.</i>

484
00:22:54,395 --> 00:22:57,329
- Is... is the way to deal with
a person with excited delirium

485
00:22:57,331 --> 00:22:59,097
if that's the case, uh

486
00:22:59,099 --> 00:23:01,632
is it to, uh,
start breaking bones

487
00:23:01,634 --> 00:23:03,033
and assaulting somebody?

488
00:23:03,035 --> 00:23:04,100
I can just imagine what the

489
00:23:04,102 --> 00:23:05,534
public perception
would be of that.

490
00:23:05,536 --> 00:23:07,802
<i>- Well, now the guy's dead, so..</i>

491
00:23:07,804 --> 00:23:09,737
- Yes, and you know what I have
to say to you of that is

492
00:23:09,739 --> 00:23:13,574
let's all be patient and wait
for the BC coroner's autopsy

493
00:23:13,576 --> 00:23:15,496
to see what
the cause of death is.

494
00:23:20,849 --> 00:23:22,215
-<i> It's the press perspective</i>

495
00:23:22,217 --> 00:23:24,417
<i>and we know that going in,
we're not ignorant.</i>

496
00:23:24,419 --> 00:23:25,885
We know they're not
gonna talk about

497
00:23:25,887 --> 00:23:28,220
1000 planes
landing safely every hour.

498
00:23:28,222 --> 00:23:31,022
They're gonna talk about the
plane crash or the near miss.

499
00:23:31,024 --> 00:23:33,290
And that's what we're dealing
with really in Taser issues

500
00:23:33,292 --> 00:23:36,693
is that we don't get to see
the 617 deployments a day

501
00:23:36,695 --> 00:23:39,195
in the United States
in which 99 percent of those

502
00:23:39,197 --> 00:23:42,831
result in a terrific outcome,
saving a life potentially.

503
00:23:42,833 --> 00:23:45,133
<i>Reducing injuries
of the officers and suspect.</i>

504
00:23:45,135 --> 00:23:47,101
<i>We're gonna deal
with that one near miss or</i>

505
00:23:47,103 --> 00:23:49,203
<i>we're gonna deal</i>
<i>with with that particular</i>
<i>controversy issue</i>

506
00:23:49,205 --> 00:23:51,638
<i>and that's all we focus on.</i>

507
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,940
<i>It shocks people's, you know,
and I hate to use a pun,</i>

508
00:23:53,942 --> 00:23:56,242
<i>but it shocks people's
acceptance sometimes.</i>

509
00:23:56,244 --> 00:23:58,777
<i>Because they just don't
understand electricity</i>

510
00:23:58,779 --> 00:24:00,979
<i>can actually be used
to save someone's life.</i>

511
00:24:02,415 --> 00:24:04,815
<i>- Six months have passed
since the world</i>

512
00:24:04,817 --> 00:24:06,183
<i>watched and re-watched</i>

513
00:24:06,185 --> 00:24:08,285
<i>the last moments
of Robert Dziekanski.</i>

514
00:24:08,287 --> 00:24:12,155
<i>The weapon was fired</i>
<i>five times for a total of 31</i>
<i>seconds.</i>

515
00:24:12,157 --> 00:24:14,824
<i>20 of those while Dziekanski
was already on the ground</i>

516
00:24:14,826 --> 00:24:16,625
<i>with the Mounties on top of him.</i>

517
00:24:16,627 --> 00:24:19,828
<i>Commissioner Thomas Braidwood</i>
<i>is holding</i>
<i>a two-stage enquiry.</i>

518
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:22,197
<i>First, into the safety
of Tasers generally</i>

519
00:24:22,199 --> 00:24:25,166
<i>and second, into the
Dziekanski case specifically.</i>

520
00:24:25,168 --> 00:24:26,901
<i>- One of the greatest things
about enquiries</i>

521
00:24:26,903 --> 00:24:29,136
<i>and this, uh,
is the case no matter</i>

522
00:24:29,138 --> 00:24:32,038
whether the government ignores
recommendations or not

523
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,506
uh, is that you actually
get to find out what happened.

524
00:24:36,176 --> 00:24:38,709
- Robert Dziekanski
was a young Polish man

525
00:24:38,711 --> 00:24:42,412
who was coming
to Canada from Poland

526
00:24:42,414 --> 00:24:44,881
to be reunited with his mum

527
00:24:44,883 --> 00:24:46,215
and he was gonna live here.

528
00:24:56,258 --> 00:24:58,024
<i>It was a long flight,
uh, I think</i>

529
00:24:58,026 --> 00:25:00,459
<i>it was a 9 or 10 hour flight
that he was on.</i>

530
00:25:00,461 --> 00:25:02,961
<i>He was not the best of flyers.</i>

531
00:25:08,067 --> 00:25:09,499
<i>And when he landed</i>

532
00:25:09,501 --> 00:25:11,133
<i>uh, he got lost.</i>

533
00:25:11,135 --> 00:25:13,768
<i>He wandered around in the, uh</i>

534
00:25:13,770 --> 00:25:15,736
<i>baggage area, baggage claim area</i>

535
00:25:15,738 --> 00:25:17,504
<i>of... of YVR</i>

536
00:25:17,506 --> 00:25:19,572
<i>the Vancouver
International Airport</i>

537
00:25:19,574 --> 00:25:22,508
<i>for another 9 or 10 hours.</i>

538
00:25:29,582 --> 00:25:30,914
<i>Outside the doors</i>

539
00:25:30,916 --> 00:25:33,950
<i>of the international
reception lounge</i>

540
00:25:33,952 --> 00:25:37,586
<i>were a couple of
airport security people</i>

541
00:25:37,588 --> 00:25:39,421
<i>who were, uh</i>

542
00:25:39,423 --> 00:25:41,089
<i>inadequately trained.</i>

543
00:25:41,091 --> 00:25:42,990
<i>Uh, they marched back and forth</i>

544
00:25:42,992 --> 00:25:44,591
<i>in front of the door</i>

545
00:25:44,593 --> 00:25:47,560
<i>like little soldiers
and they never engaged him.</i>

546
00:25:47,562 --> 00:25:48,894
<i>His impression was</i>

547
00:25:48,896 --> 00:25:50,662
<i>and we found this out later</i>

548
00:25:50,664 --> 00:25:52,864
<i>when his speech was translated</i>

549
00:25:52,866 --> 00:25:54,031
<i>he was saying to them</i>

550
00:25:54,033 --> 00:25:56,033
<i>"So you're gonna
keep me in here.</i>

551
00:25:56,035 --> 00:25:58,035
<i>So you're not
gonna let me out."</i>

552
00:26:01,507 --> 00:26:03,440
-<i> Eventually, he, uh</i>

553
00:26:03,442 --> 00:26:05,141
<i>he, uh, got so frustrated</i>

554
00:26:05,143 --> 00:26:08,577
<i>um, that he became quite
disruptive in the airport.</i>

555
00:26:08,579 --> 00:26:11,079
<i>- Sweating, he's
pacing back and forth.</i>

556
00:26:11,081 --> 00:26:12,947
<i>He's throwing furniture around.</i>

557
00:26:12,949 --> 00:26:15,582
<i>He builds himself
a little barricade</i>

558
00:26:15,584 --> 00:26:17,617
<i>at the front door of the IRL</i>

559
00:26:17,619 --> 00:26:20,452
<i>out of a couple
of tall, uh, chairs.</i>

560
00:26:25,424 --> 00:26:28,291
<i>- May I Taser him?
- Yep.</i>

561
00:26:28,293 --> 00:26:30,393
<i>- The RCMP showed up
and he greeted them.</i>

562
00:26:30,395 --> 00:26:32,561
<i>He said, "Polize! Polize!"</i>

563
00:26:32,563 --> 00:26:34,529
<i>as if he was welcoming
them because finally</i>

564
00:26:34,531 --> 00:26:36,030
<i>he was gonna get some help.</i>

565
00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:43,769
<i>- Right to the end,
Constable Gerry Rundel</i>

566
00:26:43,771 --> 00:26:45,370
<i>refused to concede
that the Mounties</i>

567
00:26:45,372 --> 00:26:47,805
<i>did anything wrong
with Robert Dziekanski.</i>

568
00:26:47,807 --> 00:26:50,474
- I see that
the video fully supports

569
00:26:51,643 --> 00:26:52,808
my version of the events.

570
00:26:52,810 --> 00:26:54,543
<i>- Before they get
near Dziekanski</i>

571
00:26:54,545 --> 00:26:55,944
<i>one officer asked another</i>

572
00:26:55,946 --> 00:26:57,078
<i>"May I Taser him?"</i>

573
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:58,412
<i>And the answer is "Yes."</i>

574
00:27:00,115 --> 00:27:02,181
-<i> Does the video show</i>

575
00:27:02,183 --> 00:27:03,982
<i>an attempt to hit you?</i>

576
00:27:07,487 --> 00:27:09,920
- It shows a step
forward, it shows..

577
00:27:09,922 --> 00:27:11,588
Um, but, uh..

578
00:27:16,928 --> 00:27:18,294
An attempt to hit us..

579
00:27:18,296 --> 00:27:20,536
The whole interaction,
the whole movement forward.

580
00:27:30,239 --> 00:27:32,138
<i>- What was
your rationale for firing</i>

581
00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:33,805
<i>the Taser the first time?</i>

582
00:27:36,176 --> 00:27:37,909
-He had, uh, the stapler open

583
00:27:37,911 --> 00:27:39,710
his other fist raised.

584
00:27:39,712 --> 00:27:42,712
He's, uh, was in a
combative stance as we call it.

585
00:27:44,348 --> 00:27:45,814
-Officer, would you

586
00:27:45,816 --> 00:27:47,248
mind opening the stapler

587
00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:49,917
and show us
the position it was in?

588
00:27:54,056 --> 00:27:55,522
-He had it like this.

589
00:27:55,524 --> 00:27:56,890
-<i> Would you mind standing?</i>

590
00:27:56,892 --> 00:27:58,858
-Absolutely.

591
00:27:58,860 --> 00:28:00,860
Had it like this. Hands up.

592
00:28:07,434 --> 00:28:08,666
-<i> And..</i>

593
00:28:10,202 --> 00:28:12,235
<i>given all of the four officers</i>

594
00:28:12,237 --> 00:28:14,403
<i>and the tools and the distance..</i>

595
00:28:17,241 --> 00:28:20,175
<i>that's what scared you?</i>

596
00:28:20,177 --> 00:28:22,537
- That's what made me fear
for the officers' safety, yes.

597
00:28:32,953 --> 00:28:34,352
<i>- Can you give us the rationale</i>

598
00:28:34,354 --> 00:28:36,434
<i>for firing the Taser
the second time?</i>

599
00:28:37,423 --> 00:28:39,089
-<i> Uh, he was still fighting</i>

600
00:28:39,091 --> 00:28:41,224
<i>and struggling with us.</i>

601
00:28:41,226 --> 00:28:43,125
<i>Uh, I..</i>

602
00:28:43,127 --> 00:28:45,327
<i>don't know why he was
not under control.</i>

603
00:28:45,329 --> 00:28:46,461
<i>He was fighting us.</i>

604
00:28:46,463 --> 00:28:49,697
<i>So that's why we had to use it.</i>

605
00:28:49,699 --> 00:28:52,132
<i>- Well, sir, he's not fighting
with anybody at the moment</i>

606
00:28:52,134 --> 00:28:53,700
<i>that we're looking at right now</i>

607
00:28:53,702 --> 00:28:55,735
<i>at the end
of the first Taser, is he?</i>

608
00:28:55,737 --> 00:28:57,303
-No.

609
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,906
<i>Did you call an ambulance?</i>

610
00:29:00,908 --> 00:29:02,907
-The chum has been Tasered.

611
00:29:04,777 --> 00:29:06,417
<i>Copy.</i>

612
00:29:07,846 --> 00:29:09,812
<i>- I can't say
that I could've done</i>

613
00:29:09,814 --> 00:29:11,013
<i>anything differently.</i>

614
00:29:11,015 --> 00:29:13,348
And that's unfortunate but

615
00:29:14,751 --> 00:29:16,784
that is how it is.

616
00:29:23,191 --> 00:29:25,024
<i>- TASER International
has put forward</i>

617
00:29:25,026 --> 00:29:27,259
a different model
of policing now.

618
00:29:27,261 --> 00:29:29,828
Now they're telling
police people

619
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:31,863
that the best way to police

620
00:29:31,865 --> 00:29:35,032
is at the end of a 35 foot wire.

621
00:29:35,868 --> 00:29:38,201
They... panicked.

622
00:29:39,070 --> 00:29:40,769
They didn't know what to do.

623
00:29:40,771 --> 00:29:43,271
They abandoned
their good basic training

624
00:29:43,273 --> 00:29:46,240
and they embraced some
very questionable training

625
00:29:46,242 --> 00:29:48,775
that they had had more recently

626
00:29:48,777 --> 00:29:51,276
and we ended up
with a terrible tragedy.

627
00:29:53,546 --> 00:29:56,613
-<i> There's frequent reports</i>

628
00:29:56,615 --> 00:29:59,849
<i>in the media that, um</i>

629
00:29:59,851 --> 00:30:01,183
<i>somebody has died or had</i>

630
00:30:01,185 --> 00:30:04,486
<i>another
catastrophic consequence.</i>

631
00:30:04,488 --> 00:30:06,855
<i>Um, and I'll just use the term</i>

632
00:30:06,857 --> 00:30:08,990
<i>in association with the use</i>

633
00:30:08,992 --> 00:30:11,492
<i>of one
of your company's products.</i>

634
00:30:11,494 --> 00:30:13,927
<i>When the company learns</i>

635
00:30:13,929 --> 00:30:16,429
<i>that such an incident occurred</i>

636
00:30:16,431 --> 00:30:18,764
<i>uh, does that come
to your attention?</i>

637
00:30:19,633 --> 00:30:21,466
-Not all, not.. Rarely.

638
00:30:21,468 --> 00:30:22,667
Because that's usually handled

639
00:30:22,669 --> 00:30:24,835
by our Media and our
Public Relations team

640
00:30:24,837 --> 00:30:25,869
and our Legal team.

641
00:30:25,871 --> 00:30:27,804
I deal in Sales and Operations.

642
00:30:29,073 --> 00:30:32,007
<i>- Well, d... doesn't
Sales and Operations</i>

643
00:30:32,009 --> 00:30:34,943
<i>uh, encompass,
at least to some degree</i>

644
00:30:34,945 --> 00:30:37,211
<i>uh, the safety of your product?</i>

645
00:30:37,213 --> 00:30:39,980
- No, that's handled by,
again, Legal and Medical

646
00:30:39,982 --> 00:30:42,248
uh, which my brother handles.

647
00:30:42,250 --> 00:30:45,050
<i>- When did you
first begin to receive</i>

648
00:30:45,052 --> 00:30:50,121
<i>uh, notices of
T... Taser associated deaths?</i>

649
00:30:50,123 --> 00:30:52,256
<i>Um, and what I mean
by that is deaths</i>

650
00:30:52,258 --> 00:30:55,525
<i>within a reasonable proximity
of a Taser application.</i>

651
00:30:55,527 --> 00:30:57,159
-<i> Object to form.</i>

652
00:31:01,598 --> 00:31:04,598
-The first one was probably..

653
00:31:06,168 --> 00:31:09,202
Uh, I believe
it was in Philadelphia.

654
00:31:09,204 --> 00:31:11,504
- <i>What year?</i>
- In 2000.

655
00:31:11,506 --> 00:31:13,105
-<i> For Taser's Rick Smith</i>

656
00:31:13,107 --> 00:31:15,474
<i>sales and profits
are skyrocketing</i>

657
00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:17,242
<i>but so is another statistic</i>

658
00:31:17,244 --> 00:31:18,876
<i>Taser-related deaths.</i>

659
00:31:22,348 --> 00:31:24,981
- The company says
the Taser is not to blame

660
00:31:24,983 --> 00:31:27,950
because most of the victims were
already fighting with police

661
00:31:27,952 --> 00:31:29,151
or were delirious

662
00:31:29,153 --> 00:31:30,819
or were high on drugs.

663
00:31:30,821 --> 00:31:32,787
-Of the cases that we've seen,

664
00:31:32,789 --> 00:31:33,954
we strongly believe

665
00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:35,855
and our medical experts
strongly believe

666
00:31:35,857 --> 00:31:39,124
the Taser had no causal
effect in those fatalities.

667
00:31:39,126 --> 00:31:40,692
<i>- The application
of the Taser I believe</i>

668
00:31:40,694 --> 00:31:42,927
was the trigger factor
or the stressful event

669
00:31:42,929 --> 00:31:45,095
which stressed an
already damaged heart

670
00:31:45,097 --> 00:31:46,896
to the point where it went
into cardiac arrest.

671
00:31:46,898 --> 00:31:48,864
- The Taser is what
triggered his heart attack?

672
00:31:48,866 --> 00:31:49,998
-Definitely.

673
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,632
-So, when Dr. Coor says

674
00:31:51,634 --> 00:31:54,701
the Taser triggered
this man's heart attack

675
00:31:54,703 --> 00:31:56,035
<i>you think that can't happen?</i>

676
00:31:56,037 --> 00:31:58,470
- I rely on the advice
of medical experts

677
00:31:58,472 --> 00:31:59,671
who have told me

678
00:31:59,673 --> 00:32:01,539
there is absolutely
no basis to conclude

679
00:32:01,541 --> 00:32:03,574
the Taser contributed
to this death.

680
00:32:03,576 --> 00:32:05,709
-<i> Dr. Jeff Ho has conducted</i>

681
00:32:05,711 --> 00:32:08,178
<i>several research
projects on Tasers</i>

682
00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:09,679
<i>at the University of Minnesota.</i>

683
00:32:09,681 --> 00:32:11,347
- None of the research
that we have done to date

684
00:32:11,349 --> 00:32:13,449
and ours is all
human research to date

685
00:32:13,451 --> 00:32:16,051
has found a connection between

686
00:32:16,053 --> 00:32:17,852
the application
of a Taser device

687
00:32:17,854 --> 00:32:20,721
and someone dying
suddenly or unexpectedly.

688
00:32:20,723 --> 00:32:22,622
<i>- We're talking about
the effects of electricity.</i>

689
00:32:22,624 --> 00:32:24,557
<i>Those are largely instantaneous.</i>

690
00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:27,493
<i>And now, with over
a million human exposures</i>

691
00:32:27,495 --> 00:32:28,827
Um, I don't..

692
00:32:29,496 --> 00:32:30,528
think that there is..

693
00:32:30,530 --> 00:32:32,863
any real room for a scientific..

694
00:32:34,266 --> 00:32:35,932
debate.

695
00:32:35,934 --> 00:32:38,367
<i>- Happening right now
a Taser death investigation</i>

696
00:32:38,369 --> 00:32:39,634
<i>in Robeson County.</i>

697
00:32:39,636 --> 00:32:42,770
- Debate in Fort Worth
lingers over the use of Tasers.

698
00:32:42,772 --> 00:32:45,205
Five people died
after being Tased by police.

699
00:32:45,207 --> 00:32:47,507
- 15-year-old Brad Elder
died early Sunday

700
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:49,342
after being Tasered
by police officers.

701
00:32:49,344 --> 00:32:50,643
-None of these cases

702
00:32:50,645 --> 00:32:52,544
has the person died

703
00:32:52,546 --> 00:32:53,978
while being hit with the Taser.

704
00:32:53,980 --> 00:32:56,447
- You're saying
that this was a coincidence?

705
00:32:56,449 --> 00:32:57,614
They would've died anyway?

706
00:32:57,616 --> 00:32:59,382
-In every single case

707
00:32:59,384 --> 00:33:01,617
these people
would've died anyway.

708
00:33:01,619 --> 00:33:04,820
<i>- The company insists
that the Taser is safe</i>

709
00:33:04,822 --> 00:33:06,788
<i>and the police,
in their training</i>

710
00:33:06,790 --> 00:33:09,090
<i>are told they can
rely on that claim.</i>

711
00:33:09,092 --> 00:33:10,991
-The fact is no one has died

712
00:33:10,993 --> 00:33:12,392
as a result
of having a conducted

713
00:33:12,394 --> 00:33:13,993
energy weapon deployed on them.

714
00:33:13,995 --> 00:33:16,895
- Imagine the scrutiny
a small company like us had

715
00:33:16,897 --> 00:33:18,096
that if we didn't
have the science

716
00:33:18,098 --> 00:33:19,897
and facts on our side

717
00:33:19,899 --> 00:33:22,259
we wouldn't be here having
this conversation, would we?

718
00:33:23,402 --> 00:33:25,722
We have it, that's why
I'm still here talking to you.

719
00:33:28,906 --> 00:33:30,572
Come on, Phil. Sorry.

720
00:33:31,308 --> 00:33:32,640
We're fine.

721
00:33:40,882 --> 00:33:44,083
- The information
is really difficult to obtain.

722
00:33:44,085 --> 00:33:45,384
Um..

723
00:33:45,386 --> 00:33:47,519
Statistical data

724
00:33:47,521 --> 00:33:50,922
relative to Taser deployments..

725
00:33:50,924 --> 00:33:54,025
Um, is, it seems to be..

726
00:33:54,027 --> 00:33:55,826
uh, closely guarded.

727
00:33:55,828 --> 00:33:57,060
And the only place

728
00:33:57,062 --> 00:33:58,861
that we were

729
00:33:58,863 --> 00:34:00,329
able to even

730
00:34:00,331 --> 00:34:03,031
begin searching for..

731
00:34:03,033 --> 00:34:04,766
data..

732
00:34:04,768 --> 00:34:05,833
was from Taser.

733
00:34:05,835 --> 00:34:08,001
And they were still
of the opinion

734
00:34:08,003 --> 00:34:10,169
and still are of the opinion

735
00:34:10,171 --> 00:34:12,671
that their product
doesn't kill anyone.

736
00:34:16,677 --> 00:34:19,744
<i>- Where do you begin
to look for those statistics</i>

737
00:34:19,746 --> 00:34:23,180
<i>when there's no
criteria to even..</i>

738
00:34:23,182 --> 00:34:26,049
<i>begin categorizing it?</i>

739
00:34:26,051 --> 00:34:27,583
-<i> You know, at what point, uh</i>

740
00:34:27,585 --> 00:34:29,518
<i>you know, is Taser looked
at as a contributing factor?</i>

741
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:30,986
If you Taser someone in a tree

742
00:34:30,988 --> 00:34:32,320
and they fall out and die

743
00:34:32,322 --> 00:34:35,056
uh, 'cause they broke
their neck, is that..

744
00:34:35,058 --> 00:34:36,791
Taser a contributing factor?

745
00:34:36,793 --> 00:34:38,025
<i>Uh, what's the base line?</i>

746
00:34:38,027 --> 00:34:39,993
<i>Or how do you..</i>

747
00:34:39,995 --> 00:34:42,028
<i>You know, compile your stats?</i>

748
00:34:51,136 --> 00:34:53,669
<i>- Even some of the more
vociferous critics</i>

749
00:34:53,671 --> 00:34:56,138
<i>have now come to understand
that Tasers are an important</i>

750
00:34:56,140 --> 00:34:59,674
<i>part of the police... toolbox.</i>

751
00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:01,542
Well, today,
with over 300 medical studies

752
00:35:01,544 --> 00:35:03,477
Tasers are by far the most

753
00:35:03,479 --> 00:35:05,979
studied force option
in existence.

754
00:35:05,981 --> 00:35:07,513
Uh, far more than pepper spray

755
00:35:07,515 --> 00:35:10,082
far more than, uh,
batons or impact weapons.

756
00:35:10,084 --> 00:35:11,783
- A... and we continue
to see those studies

757
00:35:11,785 --> 00:35:13,417
come back and show that, uh

758
00:35:13,419 --> 00:35:15,452
the safety record
is pretty incredible.

759
00:35:15,454 --> 00:35:17,253
First, I wanna have a little fun

760
00:35:17,255 --> 00:35:18,454
<i>and I'm going to show you..</i>

761
00:35:18,456 --> 00:35:20,222
<i>this is a highly doctored photo.</i>

762
00:35:20,224 --> 00:35:22,891
<i>I'm going to test your mental
acumen this morning.</i>

763
00:35:22,893 --> 00:35:24,158
<i>I'm gonna see if you can spot</i>

764
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,293
<i>the danger in this photo.</i>

765
00:35:26,295 --> 00:35:28,895
<i>If you say it is
the shark in the water</i>

766
00:35:28,897 --> 00:35:30,730
<i>you are dead wrong.</i>

767
00:35:30,732 --> 00:35:32,465
<i>Uh, because, in fact</i>

768
00:35:32,467 --> 00:35:34,967
<i>the danger in this photo</i>

769
00:35:34,969 --> 00:35:37,536
<i>are the coconuts
in the palm trees.</i>

770
00:35:37,538 --> 00:35:39,604
<i>'Cause as funny
as this may sound</i>

771
00:35:39,606 --> 00:35:42,239
<i>falling coconuts kill 15 times</i>

772
00:35:42,241 --> 00:35:43,673
<i>as many people</i>

773
00:35:43,675 --> 00:35:46,242
<i>each year as shark attacks.</i>

774
00:35:46,244 --> 00:35:48,478
If there's something that
captures your imagination

775
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,779
it's the shark in the water.

776
00:35:49,781 --> 00:35:50,913
Well, in fact, the biggest risk

777
00:35:50,915 --> 00:35:52,748
is really, is drowning.

778
00:35:52,750 --> 00:35:54,149
There are thousands
and thousands

779
00:35:54,151 --> 00:35:55,583
of drownings every year.

780
00:35:55,585 --> 00:35:58,152
But as human beings,
we tend to focus on things

781
00:35:58,154 --> 00:36:00,053
that perhaps capture
our imagination

782
00:36:00,055 --> 00:36:01,888
more than the facts.

783
00:36:01,890 --> 00:36:03,222
And that's something
we see happen

784
00:36:03,224 --> 00:36:04,957
with Tasers out
in the public media.

785
00:36:04,959 --> 00:36:06,658
<i>- Yeah, Rick, but "Jaws"
wouldn't have been the same</i>

786
00:36:06,660 --> 00:36:08,740
<i>if it'd been
a coconut fallin' on him.</i>

787
00:36:16,302 --> 00:36:17,968
<i>- Yeah. I... I... I
just couldn't believe</i>

788
00:36:17,970 --> 00:36:20,203
<i>some of the shit
they were saying.</i>

789
00:36:20,205 --> 00:36:22,205
- They're a very
strange company.

790
00:36:23,808 --> 00:36:26,475
- There... there's something
really off about them.

791
00:36:27,678 --> 00:36:29,477
-<i> Well, at that point</i>

792
00:36:29,479 --> 00:36:31,979
<i>a propaganda, if you will</i>

793
00:36:31,981 --> 00:36:36,516
that TASER was putting out
in the... in the public domain

794
00:36:36,518 --> 00:36:39,085
with respect
to the safety margin device

795
00:36:39,087 --> 00:36:40,986
and the lack of risk

796
00:36:40,988 --> 00:36:42,887
already had become convincing

797
00:36:42,889 --> 00:36:45,055
to the police departments
all across the country.

798
00:36:45,057 --> 00:36:46,923
In fact across the world

799
00:36:46,925 --> 00:36:49,825
that were purchasing
the product in large numbers.

800
00:36:49,827 --> 00:36:52,527
They were already
buying into the fact

801
00:36:52,529 --> 00:36:54,962
that this product
was completely safe

802
00:36:54,964 --> 00:36:57,397
and essentially risk-free.

803
00:36:57,399 --> 00:37:00,433
And then to try to dissuade

804
00:37:00,435 --> 00:37:02,034
these police agencies

805
00:37:02,036 --> 00:37:03,935
to try to convince
them otherwise

806
00:37:03,937 --> 00:37:06,203
is obviously
a very daunting task.

807
00:37:06,205 --> 00:37:09,239
And that's where the litigation
would begin to come in.

808
00:37:20,285 --> 00:37:23,452
-<i> We didn't have</i>
<i>a theory</i>
<i>when we first started.</i>

809
00:37:23,454 --> 00:37:25,787
We had no conception whatsoever

810
00:37:25,789 --> 00:37:27,955
<i>of what might've
been the reason why</i>

811
00:37:27,957 --> 00:37:29,923
<i>we believed the Taser
caused this death.</i>

812
00:37:29,925 --> 00:37:32,525
<i>So we were dogged
in our determination</i>

813
00:37:32,527 --> 00:37:34,426
<i>to try to come up with an answer</i>

814
00:37:34,428 --> 00:37:35,927
<i>to explain the death.</i>

815
00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:42,166
<i>When we started
to conceive of a theory</i>

816
00:37:42,168 --> 00:37:43,667
<i>as to cause of death</i>

817
00:37:43,669 --> 00:37:46,169
we... we stumbled on
metabolic acidosis.

818
00:37:46,171 --> 00:37:48,171
<i>- When did you first
consider the possibility</i>

819
00:37:48,173 --> 00:37:50,740
<i>that the M26 could contribute</i>

820
00:37:50,742 --> 00:37:53,509
<i>to, uh, metabolic acidosis?</i>

821
00:37:55,246 --> 00:37:57,045
-<i> Object to form.</i>

822
00:37:57,047 --> 00:37:58,513
-Well, again

823
00:37:58,515 --> 00:38:00,448
if we... consider

824
00:38:00,450 --> 00:38:02,950
that... metabolic acidosis

825
00:38:02,952 --> 00:38:06,620
is a fancy word
for the effects of exercise

826
00:38:06,622 --> 00:38:08,888
I would say
it's always been known

827
00:38:08,890 --> 00:38:10,789
that the Taser

828
00:38:10,791 --> 00:38:12,290
causes muscle contractions

829
00:38:12,292 --> 00:38:15,259
similar to moderate exercise.

830
00:38:15,261 --> 00:38:18,629
-The Taser device causes

831
00:38:18,631 --> 00:38:21,031
involuntary muscle contractions

832
00:38:21,033 --> 00:38:23,066
<i>throughout the skeletal system.</i>

833
00:38:23,068 --> 00:38:25,768
<i>and this dumps lactic acid</i>

834
00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:27,169
<i>into the blood stream.</i>

835
00:38:27,171 --> 00:38:28,937
-<i> And when the pH drops</i>

836
00:38:28,939 --> 00:38:31,572
<i>to a certain, you know,
dramatically low level</i>

837
00:38:31,574 --> 00:38:33,674
<i>then you get into a situation</i>

838
00:38:33,676 --> 00:38:35,342
<i>where cardiac arrest</i>

839
00:38:35,344 --> 00:38:37,143
<i>arrhythmias
to the heart can occur.</i>

840
00:38:37,145 --> 00:38:39,645
<i>It logically flowed for us</i>

841
00:38:39,647 --> 00:38:41,913
that if the device
causes the contractions

842
00:38:41,915 --> 00:38:45,149
the contractions
therefore create..

843
00:38:45,151 --> 00:38:46,917
lactic acid.

844
00:38:46,919 --> 00:38:49,185
- Was there some signs
that contractions

845
00:38:49,187 --> 00:38:51,887
of muscles
could cause some acidosis?

846
00:38:51,889 --> 00:38:53,355
Yes.

847
00:38:53,357 --> 00:38:55,690
But to make the conclusion

848
00:38:55,692 --> 00:38:57,491
to jump to the conclusion

849
00:38:57,493 --> 00:39:00,894
that the application
of a Taser device

850
00:39:00,896 --> 00:39:02,795
could cause severe acidosis

851
00:39:02,797 --> 00:39:04,663
that could cause cardiac arrest

852
00:39:04,665 --> 00:39:06,631
would be like saying

853
00:39:06,633 --> 00:39:09,066
that walking up
a flight of stairs

854
00:39:09,068 --> 00:39:12,402
could cause acidosis
leading to cardiac arrest.

855
00:39:12,404 --> 00:39:13,970
'Cause that's
the level of exertion

856
00:39:13,972 --> 00:39:16,138
we're talking about
with a Taser device

857
00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:18,740
as you well know
from subsequent studies.

858
00:39:18,742 --> 00:39:20,942
<i>- Now, with the
five-second discharge</i>

859
00:39:20,944 --> 00:39:22,576
<i>the effect is negligible.</i>

860
00:39:22,578 --> 00:39:24,978
<i>It's measurable,
but it's negligible.</i>

861
00:39:24,980 --> 00:39:26,779
<i>The impact is no more</i>

862
00:39:26,781 --> 00:39:28,714
<i>than a good workout in the gym.</i>

863
00:39:28,716 --> 00:39:30,615
<i>But what if we repeat that?</i>

864
00:39:30,617 --> 00:39:32,683
<i>And what if we show a case</i>

865
00:39:32,685 --> 00:39:34,351
<i>where there's five discharges</i>

866
00:39:34,353 --> 00:39:36,219
<i>or 10 or 15</i>

867
00:39:36,221 --> 00:39:38,754
<i>or even more
than 20 like Heston?</i>

868
00:39:38,756 --> 00:39:40,655
<i>We knew that the ultimate</i>

869
00:39:40,657 --> 00:39:42,456
<i>results of acidosis</i>

870
00:39:42,458 --> 00:39:45,492
<i>in that person's blood</i>
<i>would be</i>
<i>significantly greater.</i>

871
00:39:45,494 --> 00:39:48,495
<i>That, again played
into our theory</i>

872
00:39:48,497 --> 00:39:50,497
of metabolic acidosis.

873
00:39:50,499 --> 00:39:51,931
-The jury accepted our theory

874
00:39:51,933 --> 00:39:53,332
and the judge
accepted our theory

875
00:39:53,334 --> 00:39:55,167
and... and we prevailed.

876
00:40:04,278 --> 00:40:05,944
<i>- Historically,
as we've talked about this</i>

877
00:40:05,946 --> 00:40:09,280
<i>our record has been
127 case dismissals</i>

878
00:40:09,282 --> 00:40:11,815
<i>and we have suffered
one courtroom loss.</i>

879
00:40:11,817 --> 00:40:14,184
<i>But we've had an important
development in that case.</i>

880
00:40:14,186 --> 00:40:15,718
<i>We told you we would appeal it</i>

881
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:16,885
<i>and we did.</i>

882
00:40:16,887 --> 00:40:18,920
<i>So, the headline
grabber was that</i>

883
00:40:18,922 --> 00:40:23,123
<i>TASER was hit with
a 6.2 million dollar judgment</i>

884
00:40:23,125 --> 00:40:26,059
<i>primarily, uh,
in punitive damages.</i>

885
00:40:26,061 --> 00:40:29,796
<i>But very quickly the punitive
damages were thrown out</i>

886
00:40:29,798 --> 00:40:32,899
<i>and the case was reduced
to 1.7 million dollars.</i>

887
00:40:32,901 --> 00:40:34,567
<i>We then took the case on appeal</i>

888
00:40:34,569 --> 00:40:36,802
<i>and we just last week
found out we prevailed</i>

889
00:40:36,804 --> 00:40:39,805
<i>on 3 out of 4 issues on appeal</i>

890
00:40:39,807 --> 00:40:41,206
<i>and the $1.7 million</i>

891
00:40:41,208 --> 00:40:42,273
<i>has now been reduced</i>

892
00:40:42,275 --> 00:40:44,575
<i>to $150,000.</i>

893
00:40:44,577 --> 00:40:47,210
<i>Uh, so this is a huge success</i>

894
00:40:47,212 --> 00:40:48,277
<i>uh, for our Legal team</i>

895
00:40:48,279 --> 00:40:49,411
<i>and frankly I think</i>

896
00:40:49,413 --> 00:40:51,246
<i>for law enforcement in general.</i>

897
00:40:51,248 --> 00:40:53,348
<i>Uh, we believe that, uh</i>

898
00:40:53,350 --> 00:40:54,682
<i>uh, you know,
it... it paid off</i>

899
00:40:54,684 --> 00:40:57,284
that we continued
to, uh... uh, defend

900
00:40:57,286 --> 00:40:59,152
ourselves and our technology.

901
00:40:59,154 --> 00:41:00,620
And so, of course

902
00:41:00,622 --> 00:41:02,888
this probably won't
make headlines in the media

903
00:41:02,890 --> 00:41:05,123
but that 6.2 million dollar case

904
00:41:05,125 --> 00:41:07,625
was dramatically
reduced to $150,000.

905
00:41:12,398 --> 00:41:13,764
- This is what
the tobacco industry

906
00:41:13,766 --> 00:41:15,766
relied on for, uh, decades, was

907
00:41:15,768 --> 00:41:20,236
you can't prove that tobacco
smoking causes cancer,
you can't.

908
00:41:20,238 --> 00:41:22,805
You don't know
what the exact mechanism is.

909
00:41:22,807 --> 00:41:25,874
It just happens that a lot
of people who smoke get cancer.

910
00:41:25,876 --> 00:41:28,443
Well, uh, Taser is relying
on the same thing.

911
00:41:35,751 --> 00:41:37,784
<i>- The Standing Committee
on Public Safety</i>

912
00:41:37,786 --> 00:41:39,452
<i>and National Security</i>

913
00:41:39,454 --> 00:41:42,054
meeting number 13..

914
00:41:42,056 --> 00:41:43,321
and, uh, we're going

915
00:41:43,323 --> 00:41:46,524
to be discussing today Tasers.

916
00:41:46,526 --> 00:41:48,492
<i>And we'd like to welcome</i>

917
00:41:48,494 --> 00:41:50,694
<i>to our committee</i>

918
00:41:50,696 --> 00:41:53,596
<i>from TASER International,
Mr. Tom Smith, the chairman.</i>

919
00:41:53,598 --> 00:41:56,599
We'll begin with the,
uh, official opposition

920
00:41:56,601 --> 00:41:59,100
uh, Mr. Dosanjh, please.

921
00:42:01,037 --> 00:42:03,537
-Are you suggesting to us

922
00:42:03,539 --> 00:42:06,473
at all... and if you are,
I want you to admit that.

923
00:42:06,475 --> 00:42:08,274
are you suggesting to us

924
00:42:08,276 --> 00:42:10,342
that while 300 people

925
00:42:10,344 --> 00:42:12,377
have died in North America

926
00:42:12,379 --> 00:42:14,679
17 of them in Canada

927
00:42:14,681 --> 00:42:16,847
subsequent to them
being Tasered..

928
00:42:17,783 --> 00:42:20,283
that Tasers have not played

929
00:42:20,285 --> 00:42:22,785
any part whatsoever
in their deaths?

930
00:42:25,689 --> 00:42:27,188
-Uh, again, I would suggest

931
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:29,256
that you have to look
at the scientific research

932
00:42:29,258 --> 00:42:30,757
that has been done today.

933
00:42:30,759 --> 00:42:32,291
I've been Tasered myself.

934
00:42:32,293 --> 00:42:34,359
And we rely
on the scientific experts

935
00:42:34,361 --> 00:42:35,393
to look at the data.

936
00:42:35,395 --> 00:42:37,528
And in terms of the studies

937
00:42:37,530 --> 00:42:38,896
that have been done,
we have not seen

938
00:42:38,898 --> 00:42:40,130
anything conclusively

939
00:42:40,132 --> 00:42:42,265
that has come
back scientifically

940
00:42:42,267 --> 00:42:43,899
that has said
a Taser has killed.

941
00:42:43,901 --> 00:42:45,600
<i>There are less than 30 cases</i>

942
00:42:45,602 --> 00:42:46,701
<i>where the Taser has been listed</i>

943
00:42:46,703 --> 00:42:48,235
as a contributing factor.

944
00:42:48,237 --> 00:42:50,370
Meaning it's listed
along with other devices.

945
00:42:50,372 --> 00:42:51,904
But that is completely different

946
00:42:51,906 --> 00:42:54,973
than saying a Taser
<i>caused</i> a certain outcome.

947
00:42:54,975 --> 00:42:56,741
- Are... are you then
suggesting to me

948
00:42:56,743 --> 00:42:59,143
that the 270

949
00:42:59,145 --> 00:43:01,011
that have died other than the 30

950
00:43:01,013 --> 00:43:02,879
that you, uh, say may... have

951
00:43:02,881 --> 00:43:05,548
may have been
contributed to by Tasers

952
00:43:05,550 --> 00:43:08,217
that tho... those
270 would have died

953
00:43:08,219 --> 00:43:09,719
regardless of whether or not

954
00:43:09,721 --> 00:43:11,787
a Taser was used?

955
00:43:11,789 --> 00:43:14,289
- Well, sir,
I'm responding to the medical...

956
00:43:14,291 --> 00:43:16,791
- No, I'm... I'm
asking you a question.

957
00:43:16,793 --> 00:43:19,260
Give me a question,
a lay person's a... answer

958
00:43:19,262 --> 00:43:21,095
in a lay person's language.

959
00:43:21,097 --> 00:43:23,931
Are you suggesting then
that those 270

960
00:43:23,933 --> 00:43:26,199
would have simply vanished

961
00:43:26,201 --> 00:43:28,568
even if Taser had not been used?

962
00:43:28,570 --> 00:43:30,202
- I'm telling you
the research that was done

963
00:43:30,204 --> 00:43:31,937
on those particular
cases has shown

964
00:43:31,939 --> 00:43:33,238
that the Taser did not cause

965
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:35,473
nor contribute
in those 270 cases.

966
00:43:35,475 --> 00:43:37,842
- And they would
have died regardless.

967
00:43:37,844 --> 00:43:39,777
- Well, I-m... I'm not
gonna make that statement

968
00:43:39,779 --> 00:43:40,978
but I'm gonna
tell you the research

969
00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:42,412
that has been done
claim that Taser

970
00:43:42,414 --> 00:43:44,080
had nothing to do
with the outcome of those

971
00:43:44,082 --> 00:43:45,414
tragic incidents.

972
00:43:48,552 --> 00:43:51,085
Uh, I'm trying to get this
report... reporter first.

973
00:43:59,961 --> 00:44:02,161
- Everything's on the table.
- <i>What do you mean by that?</i>

974
00:44:02,163 --> 00:44:03,595
-That means it could be banned

975
00:44:03,597 --> 00:44:06,264
or it could be very severely

976
00:44:06,266 --> 00:44:08,332
limited as to when
they can be used.

977
00:44:08,334 --> 00:44:10,834
- It's hard to be
able to really judge

978
00:44:10,836 --> 00:44:12,669
well, how safe the Taser is

979
00:44:12,671 --> 00:44:14,237
what the effects are

980
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,472
who's died, who's been hurt

981
00:44:16,474 --> 00:44:18,240
what's happened during the
course of training.

982
00:44:18,242 --> 00:44:19,574
'Cause we don't
have that information.

983
00:44:19,576 --> 00:44:20,841
They've been withholding it.

984
00:44:26,048 --> 00:44:27,480
- Uh, good morning,
Mr. Commissioner.

985
00:44:27,482 --> 00:44:28,614
Uh, thank you very much

986
00:44:28,616 --> 00:44:29,748
<i>for the opportunity
to come up here</i>

987
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:31,349
<i>and speak to you today.</i>

988
00:44:31,351 --> 00:44:32,416
Air bags were designed

989
00:44:32,418 --> 00:44:33,950
to make automobile
accidents safer

990
00:44:33,952 --> 00:44:35,451
much like a Taser was designed

991
00:44:35,453 --> 00:44:37,152
to make interaction
and confrontation

992
00:44:37,154 --> 00:44:39,787
between people safer.

993
00:44:39,789 --> 00:44:41,321
<i>As you take this analysis</i>

994
00:44:41,323 --> 00:44:43,489
<i>if not a Taser device
to end a confrontation</i>

995
00:44:43,491 --> 00:44:44,756
<i>between people</i>

996
00:44:44,758 --> 00:44:46,290
<i>what force option
is that officer</i>

997
00:44:46,292 --> 00:44:47,557
<i>gonna be left to use</i>

998
00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:49,125
<i>to end that confrontation</i>

999
00:44:49,127 --> 00:44:53,128
<i>and end it effectively and
take that person into custody?</i>

1000
00:44:53,130 --> 00:44:54,596
<i>- Morning.
- Good morning.</i>

1001
00:44:54,598 --> 00:44:55,763
Thank you very much
for being patient

1002
00:44:55,765 --> 00:44:57,464
and letting me speak.

1003
00:44:57,466 --> 00:44:59,966
<i>- Do you accept
that Robert Dziekanski died</i>

1004
00:44:59,968 --> 00:45:02,068
<i>in part, because he was Tasered?</i>

1005
00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:03,602
- Sir, we're... we're all
waiting.

1006
00:45:03,604 --> 00:45:05,437
I'm waiting, you're waiting,
everybody's waiting.

1007
00:45:05,439 --> 00:45:07,772
We have not seen
the medical examiner's report.

1008
00:45:07,774 --> 00:45:09,306
<i>- What else could it
possibly be, sir?</i>

1009
00:45:09,308 --> 00:45:10,774
-Sir, I'm not gonna speculate.

1010
00:45:10,776 --> 00:45:12,308
I've said repeatedly

1011
00:45:12,310 --> 00:45:14,877
we're all waiting to see what
the medical examiner has to say.

1012
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,612
<i>- Is it possible
that Mr. Dziekanski</i>

1013
00:45:17,614 --> 00:45:19,513
<i>would've fallen down and died</i>

1014
00:45:19,515 --> 00:45:21,014
<i>without, uh,
being hit by a Taser?</i>

1015
00:45:21,016 --> 00:45:22,582
- Again, I'm not gonna speculate

1016
00:45:22,584 --> 00:45:23,916
on what could've or would've.

1017
00:45:23,918 --> 00:45:25,717
I mean, we could play
that game all day long..

1018
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,285
<i>- What do you think of all
this stuff that he's pointing</i>

1019
00:45:27,287 --> 00:45:29,587
<i>as evidence
that Taser use is safe?</i>

1020
00:45:29,589 --> 00:45:31,755
- I'm unconvinced.
Call me a cynic.

1021
00:45:31,757 --> 00:45:33,289
The... the fact is that, uh

1022
00:45:33,291 --> 00:45:35,524
that, uh, all of the evidence

1023
00:45:35,526 --> 00:45:36,958
that he has led, uh

1024
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,593
isn't conclusive
to suggest that, uh

1025
00:45:39,595 --> 00:45:41,795
even under appropriate
circumstances

1026
00:45:41,797 --> 00:45:42,896
if Taser is used

1027
00:45:42,898 --> 00:45:45,064
it is not gonna cause death.

1028
00:45:45,066 --> 00:45:47,332
-I have been Tasered
multiple times.
-<i> In the chest?</i>

1029
00:45:47,334 --> 00:45:49,267
- Yes, I have.
- <i>Consecutively?</i>

1030
00:45:49,269 --> 00:45:51,135
- I have only,
when I've done my exposures

1031
00:45:51,137 --> 00:45:52,803
it's been a single
five-second application.

1032
00:45:52,805 --> 00:45:54,304
-<i> That's my question..</i>

1033
00:45:54,306 --> 00:45:56,139
<i>and that's when
the risk increases</i>

1034
00:45:56,141 --> 00:45:57,673
<i>according to the science.</i>

1035
00:45:57,675 --> 00:45:59,608
- No, we have..
Sir, I will disagree with you.

1036
00:45:59,610 --> 00:46:02,544
You show me the science where
it shows the risk increases

1037
00:46:02,546 --> 00:46:03,778
with multiple exposures.

1038
00:46:03,780 --> 00:46:05,513
We have not seen it.

1039
00:46:05,515 --> 00:46:06,647
-<i> We need to do more research.</i>

1040
00:46:06,649 --> 00:46:08,548
That's not what's
happening right now.

1041
00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:10,283
The... they have,
these guys have blinkers on

1042
00:46:10,285 --> 00:46:12,251
and they're saying
there's sufficient evidence

1043
00:46:12,253 --> 00:46:14,553
sufficient data,
full speed ahead.

1044
00:46:14,555 --> 00:46:15,854
Absolutely not.

1045
00:46:15,856 --> 00:46:18,189
- But knowing it's been
misused, though.

1046
00:46:20,459 --> 00:46:21,724
-<i> Of course we're concerned.</i>

1047
00:46:21,726 --> 00:46:23,292
<i>That's why we do
all the medical studies.</i>

1048
00:46:23,294 --> 00:46:25,127
<i>- But I'm asking,
are you, are you personally</i>

1049
00:46:25,129 --> 00:46:27,095
<i>concerned about it?</i>

1050
00:46:27,097 --> 00:46:29,464
<i>- You personally, not "we,"
but... but you know</i>

1051
00:46:29,466 --> 00:46:31,032
<i>w... when you use
"we," I... I,</i>

1052
00:46:31,034 --> 00:46:32,466
<i>you're talking
about the company.</i>

1053
00:46:32,468 --> 00:46:34,668
<i>I'm asking about you
as a... as a human being.</i>

1054
00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:36,069
<i>Is there something that</i>

1055
00:46:36,071 --> 00:46:38,037
<i>you personally
concern yourself with?</i>

1056
00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:40,072
- I make sure that... that
we have people

1057
00:46:40,074 --> 00:46:41,640
that are doing
the job of looking

1058
00:46:41,642 --> 00:46:43,074
at the medical research, yes.

1059
00:46:43,076 --> 00:46:45,776
But I don't do it, I don't, uh..

1060
00:46:45,778 --> 00:46:47,511
We all can't do
every job in the company

1061
00:46:47,513 --> 00:46:49,212
so we have people
that are focused

1062
00:46:49,214 --> 00:46:51,948
on the medical aspects,
the safety aspects

1063
00:46:51,950 --> 00:46:54,684
and again, I get
the summary details, uh

1064
00:46:54,686 --> 00:46:56,552
excuse me,
the summary of the details

1065
00:46:56,554 --> 00:46:59,488
of what the research is finding.

1066
00:46:59,490 --> 00:47:01,590
But I don't, I'm not
involved in the research

1067
00:47:01,592 --> 00:47:03,258
I don't attend the research.

1068
00:47:03,260 --> 00:47:04,993
Uh, that's handled
within our Legal

1069
00:47:04,995 --> 00:47:07,195
and Medical Research
area of the company.

1070
00:47:07,197 --> 00:47:09,964
- <i>But in any event...</i>
- Uh, may I comment on that?

1071
00:47:09,966 --> 00:47:11,365
<i>- Well,
it's n... not a question.</i>

1072
00:47:11,367 --> 00:47:13,166
<i>That was more
a statement on my part.</i>

1073
00:47:13,168 --> 00:47:15,168
<i>Um, let me just
move on real quickly</i>

1074
00:47:15,170 --> 00:47:17,203
<i>to a couple of last things...</i>

1075
00:47:17,205 --> 00:47:18,704
- Can we take
one last bathroom break?

1076
00:47:18,706 --> 00:47:20,639
I can be very fast.
Like 2 minutes.

1077
00:47:20,641 --> 00:47:22,073
-<i> Actually, I'd prefer not.</i>

1078
00:47:22,075 --> 00:47:23,841
<i>Uh, if you can hold
on for 20 minutes...</i>

1079
00:47:23,843 --> 00:47:25,442
-Then I can't. 20 minutes!

1080
00:47:25,444 --> 00:47:27,577
I cannot assure
that I can answer

1081
00:47:27,579 --> 00:47:29,512
cognitively and accurately.

1082
00:47:29,514 --> 00:47:32,081
Uh, we've been going
for well over an hour.

1083
00:47:32,083 --> 00:47:34,616
<i>- Oh, no. We've been going
for a lot less than an hour.</i>

1084
00:47:34,618 --> 00:47:36,250
- No, we haven't.
I've been watching the clock.

1085
00:47:36,252 --> 00:47:38,318
We took, we took
our last break at 3:30.

1086
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,687
It's now 4:45.

1087
00:47:40,689 --> 00:47:42,155
So, if that was
a 10-minute break...

1088
00:47:42,157 --> 00:47:43,656
<i>- I'm gonna insist
that we continue.</i>

1089
00:47:43,658 --> 00:47:45,491
<i>I... I've given you plenty of
breaks today</i>

1090
00:47:45,493 --> 00:47:47,359
<i>and I think it's been
more than reasonable.</i>

1091
00:47:47,361 --> 00:47:49,594
<i>I just got a few more
minutes of questions</i>

1092
00:47:49,596 --> 00:47:51,329
<i>and I-I have a flight to catch</i>

1093
00:47:51,331 --> 00:47:52,997
<i>as you know
and I wanna finish. Uh...</i>

1094
00:47:52,999 --> 00:47:54,665
-You can't give me

1095
00:47:54,667 --> 00:47:57,434
120 seconds
to go to the restroom.

1096
00:47:57,436 --> 00:48:00,036
You'd rather spend
that time debating about this?

1097
00:48:00,038 --> 00:48:01,737
-<i> Um, it's your choice.</i>

1098
00:48:01,739 --> 00:48:03,872
<i>But in any event, um,
let me ask you this.</i>

1099
00:48:03,874 --> 00:48:06,541
<i>In terms of a, um..</i>

1100
00:48:06,543 --> 00:48:08,576
<i>the risk assessment
that was done</i>

1101
00:48:08,578 --> 00:48:10,678
<i>uh, in the Sticky Shocker Review</i>

1102
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,414
<i>did TASER ever
produce a document</i>

1103
00:48:13,416 --> 00:48:15,616
<i>that referenced a comparable</i>

1104
00:48:15,618 --> 00:48:18,117
<i>risk assessment for the M26?</i>

1105
00:48:19,954 --> 00:48:21,286
-<i> Objection to form.</i>

1106
00:48:21,288 --> 00:48:23,655
-I..

1107
00:48:23,657 --> 00:48:25,923
I don't know
what you're talking about

1108
00:48:25,925 --> 00:48:27,791
but if you have a document,
I'd be happy to look at it.

1109
00:48:27,793 --> 00:48:31,361
We have a compendium
of studies and documents

1110
00:48:31,363 --> 00:48:34,063
related to the MNX26.

1111
00:48:34,065 --> 00:48:37,065
Runs into probably
over 3000 pages right now.

1112
00:49:00,856 --> 00:49:03,089
<i>- I think Butler,
if I recall correctly</i>

1113
00:49:03,091 --> 00:49:05,524
<i>was the first
of the series of cases.</i>

1114
00:49:05,526 --> 00:49:07,392
-John and Peter at that point

1115
00:49:07,394 --> 00:49:09,594
were all involved with..

1116
00:49:09,596 --> 00:49:11,462
what happened to Mr. Heston.

1117
00:49:11,464 --> 00:49:13,797
Which was metabolic acidosis

1118
00:49:13,799 --> 00:49:16,533
excited delirium,
whatever you wanna call it.

1119
00:49:16,535 --> 00:49:18,668
They were focused on the science

1120
00:49:18,670 --> 00:49:20,136
and the medicine around that.

1121
00:49:20,138 --> 00:49:21,770
And they weren't interested

1122
00:49:21,772 --> 00:49:24,305
<i>in what happened
to Mr. Butler.</i>

1123
00:49:24,307 --> 00:49:27,207
<i>- Butler presented an
interesting challenge for us.</i>

1124
00:49:27,209 --> 00:49:29,175
<i>We knew that our acidosis theory</i>

1125
00:49:29,177 --> 00:49:32,311
<i>was based
on multiple discharges.</i>

1126
00:49:32,313 --> 00:49:34,079
<i>We just, in our own
minds, had thought</i>

1127
00:49:34,081 --> 00:49:38,048
that it would have
to be at least 5 discharges.

1128
00:49:38,050 --> 00:49:40,583
Uh, but suddenly, we have Butler

1129
00:49:40,585 --> 00:49:42,217
<i>and there's
only three discharges</i>

1130
00:49:42,219 --> 00:49:44,285
<i>and we have a cardiac arrest.</i>

1131
00:49:44,287 --> 00:49:46,787
- And there was no
other explanation.

1132
00:49:46,789 --> 00:49:50,557
He wasn't on cocaine,
he wasn't on methamphetamines.

1133
00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:54,327
He was, uh, a drunk guy
on the bus.

1134
00:49:54,329 --> 00:49:56,595
- We're faced
with this daunting prospect

1135
00:49:56,597 --> 00:49:58,496
that our acidosis
theory doesn't look

1136
00:49:58,498 --> 00:50:00,431
like it's gonna
apply in this case.

1137
00:50:00,433 --> 00:50:03,300
What then could be
the explanation?

1138
00:50:03,302 --> 00:50:05,935
-I became convinced in reading

1139
00:50:05,937 --> 00:50:07,503
TASER's research

1140
00:50:07,505 --> 00:50:09,972
and the way TASER's
representing things

1141
00:50:09,974 --> 00:50:12,040
<i>that it couldn't happen.</i>

1142
00:50:12,042 --> 00:50:13,842
<i>Uh, I said, you know,
the current is too low</i>

1143
00:50:13,844 --> 00:50:15,210
<i>it can't capture the heart.</i>

1144
00:50:15,212 --> 00:50:16,911
<i>You know..</i>

1145
00:50:16,913 --> 00:50:18,345
<i>blah-blah-blah.</i>

1146
00:50:18,347 --> 00:50:20,847
<i>Law enforcement,
at that point in time</i>

1147
00:50:20,849 --> 00:50:23,282
<i>was being trained
by the TASER company.</i>

1148
00:50:23,284 --> 00:50:26,084
<i>When they sold them
the Taser devices</i>

1149
00:50:26,086 --> 00:50:29,120
<i>that they could use
the Taser device</i>

1150
00:50:29,122 --> 00:50:31,755
<i>just like they use
their fire... firearm.</i>

1151
00:50:31,757 --> 00:50:33,423
Shoot for center mass

1152
00:50:33,425 --> 00:50:34,957
shoot for the chest

1153
00:50:34,959 --> 00:50:37,092
and it would not
affect the human heart.

1154
00:50:37,094 --> 00:50:39,027
Could not affect
the human heart.

1155
00:50:39,029 --> 00:50:41,229
- And when I looked
at the Darryl Turner case

1156
00:50:41,231 --> 00:50:43,764
I was absolutely appalled.

1157
00:50:49,238 --> 00:50:51,738
<i>Turner case was an extremely
important case.</i>

1158
00:50:51,740 --> 00:50:55,174
<i>No other restraint other
than the Taser was involved</i>

1159
00:50:55,176 --> 00:50:57,543
<i>and it was a direct chest shot.</i>

1160
00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:07,585
<i>He came out of the back room</i>

1161
00:51:07,587 --> 00:51:10,487
<i>he was wearing an undershirt.</i>

1162
00:51:10,489 --> 00:51:13,122
<i>Darryl knocks a stand</i>

1163
00:51:13,124 --> 00:51:15,424
<i>off of the counter.</i>

1164
00:51:15,426 --> 00:51:17,893
<i>Just as this is happening</i>

1165
00:51:17,895 --> 00:51:21,129
<i>Officer Dawson pulls up.</i>

1166
00:51:21,131 --> 00:51:23,898
<i>And he can kinda hear
the row from outside.</i>

1167
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:27,401
<i>He comes in,</i>
<i>and you see clearly</i>
<i>on the tape</i>

1168
00:51:27,403 --> 00:51:31,138
<i>he's pulling the Taser</i>
<i>as he's just walking in</i>
<i>the front door.</i>

1169
00:51:31,140 --> 00:51:33,540
<i>Before he knows anything
that's going on.</i>

1170
00:51:33,542 --> 00:51:35,408
<i>And Darryl's kind
of standing in a corner</i>

1171
00:51:35,410 --> 00:51:37,109
<i>and you'll see it very clearly.</i>

1172
00:51:37,111 --> 00:51:38,910
<i>And Dawson just walks up to him</i>

1173
00:51:38,912 --> 00:51:40,511
<i>and Darryl's just standing there</i>

1174
00:51:40,513 --> 00:51:43,847
<i>and you see, see the laser
sight right on the sternum.</i>

1175
00:51:43,849 --> 00:51:47,283
<i>And then Dawson
pulls the trigger from..</i>

1176
00:51:47,285 --> 00:51:48,550
<i>4, 5 feet</i>

1177
00:51:48,552 --> 00:51:50,785
<i>and then Darryl does the walk</i>

1178
00:51:50,787 --> 00:51:52,753
<i>and staggers away,
and you can follow it</i>

1179
00:51:52,755 --> 00:51:54,421
<i>on the different cameras.</i>

1180
00:51:56,324 --> 00:51:58,991
<i>And then he collapses.
Off-camera.</i>

1181
00:51:58,993 --> 00:52:01,059
<i>There's two cameras
on each of the front doors</i>

1182
00:52:01,061 --> 00:52:03,021
<i>and he's right underneath them.</i>

1183
00:52:04,797 --> 00:52:06,429
<i>And then you can see
what the timing is</i>

1184
00:52:06,431 --> 00:52:08,697
<i>before the fire department</i>

1185
00:52:08,699 --> 00:52:10,432
<i>and the paramedics show up.</i>

1186
00:52:11,802 --> 00:52:14,002
<i>And then they take him
out in a gurney and..</i>

1187
00:52:15,205 --> 00:52:17,004
he's dead.

1188
00:52:33,355 --> 00:52:35,121
<i>- So, what you're saying,
I mean, I'm trying</i>

1189
00:52:35,123 --> 00:52:36,422
<i>to understand
what you're saying.</i>

1190
00:52:36,424 --> 00:52:37,923
<i>What you're saying is that</i>

1191
00:52:37,925 --> 00:52:39,724
<i>the use of the Taser had nothing</i>

1192
00:52:39,726 --> 00:52:42,460
<i>to do with the cardiac
arrest in this case.</i>

1193
00:52:42,462 --> 00:52:43,894
<i>That... Darryl</i>

1194
00:52:43,896 --> 00:52:46,630
<i>was about to collapse
into cardiac arrest</i>

1195
00:52:46,632 --> 00:52:48,665
<i>anyway, when Officer Dawson</i>

1196
00:52:48,667 --> 00:52:50,233
<i>walked into the Food Lion</i>

1197
00:52:50,235 --> 00:52:52,001
<i>and then he did</i>

1198
00:52:52,003 --> 00:52:53,602
<i>and it just had no
causal connection</i>

1199
00:52:53,604 --> 00:52:55,036
<i>to the Taser application.</i>

1200
00:52:55,038 --> 00:52:56,704
<i>Is that, is that your testimony?</i>

1201
00:52:56,706 --> 00:52:58,639
-What I'm saying is that

1202
00:52:58,641 --> 00:53:00,040
uh, to the best of our knowledge

1203
00:53:00,042 --> 00:53:02,509
this does not appear
that the dilect...

1204
00:53:02,511 --> 00:53:04,978
direct electric
effects of the Taser

1205
00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:07,814
would be the most likely
cause of the cardiac arrest

1206
00:53:07,816 --> 00:53:09,749
and that this case
is more similar

1207
00:53:09,751 --> 00:53:11,684
to the cases

1208
00:53:11,686 --> 00:53:13,686
of sudden cardiac death

1209
00:53:13,688 --> 00:53:15,421
in high school athletes

1210
00:53:15,423 --> 00:53:17,656
i.e., related
to the physical stress

1211
00:53:17,658 --> 00:53:19,124
of the situation.

1212
00:53:19,126 --> 00:53:21,926
And other factors, I'm sure.

1213
00:53:21,928 --> 00:53:24,061
It's not a fully
understood phenomenon

1214
00:53:24,063 --> 00:53:28,297
why young, otherwise
very healthy looking people

1215
00:53:28,299 --> 00:53:30,232
uh, collapse and die

1216
00:53:30,234 --> 00:53:33,134
uh, during physically
stressful events.

1217
00:53:33,136 --> 00:53:38,371
<i>- Uh, were you aware
of the case of Darryl Turner?</i>

1218
00:53:38,373 --> 00:53:40,106
-I don't recall the name.

1219
00:53:45,979 --> 00:53:48,646
-<i> The agencies are relying</i>

1220
00:53:48,648 --> 00:53:50,848
<i>on medical safety information.</i>

1221
00:53:50,850 --> 00:53:53,383
<i>They're getting from your
company, don't you agree?</i>

1222
00:53:53,385 --> 00:53:54,917
-<i> Object to foundation.</i>

1223
00:53:54,919 --> 00:53:57,452
- Uh, they're relying
upon the full gamut

1224
00:53:57,454 --> 00:54:00,087
of training, research

1225
00:54:00,089 --> 00:54:02,122
uh, their trainers' inputs

1226
00:54:02,124 --> 00:54:04,023
use of force policies,
civil rights

1227
00:54:04,025 --> 00:54:06,191
and then their own
community standards.

1228
00:54:06,193 --> 00:54:07,959
And then we want the instructor

1229
00:54:07,961 --> 00:54:10,461
to go back to their agency and
formulate their own policies.

1230
00:54:10,463 --> 00:54:12,029
<i>- Right, but don't you believe</i>

1231
00:54:12,031 --> 00:54:13,563
<i>that they are taking
into account</i>

1232
00:54:13,565 --> 00:54:15,331
<i>the representations
that your company</i>

1233
00:54:15,333 --> 00:54:17,166
<i>is making about medical safety?</i>

1234
00:54:17,168 --> 00:54:18,233
-<i> Object to foundation.</i>

1235
00:54:18,235 --> 00:54:19,734
- I can't speak
for those agencies.

1236
00:54:19,736 --> 00:54:22,303
That's a hypothetical.
I'm just guessing on this then.

1237
00:54:22,305 --> 00:54:25,039
<i>- So, you... you really don't
know the answer to that.</i>

1238
00:54:25,041 --> 00:54:27,541
- I couldn't speak
for the individual agencies.

1239
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,780
- I don't know
if there was any one thing

1240
00:54:33,782 --> 00:54:35,181
that convinced us

1241
00:54:35,183 --> 00:54:37,883
but roughly around that time

1242
00:54:37,885 --> 00:54:41,986
we, um, got in touch
with Dr. Douglas Zipes.

1243
00:54:41,988 --> 00:54:46,289
And that was a seminal
moment in this litigation.

1244
00:54:56,366 --> 00:54:58,099
-<i> It was pretty clear to me</i>

1245
00:54:58,101 --> 00:55:01,969
<i>that this was
Taser-induced cardiac arrest.</i>

1246
00:55:01,971 --> 00:55:04,738
We know that, uh,
an electrical pulse

1247
00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:06,973
either delivered
through the skin

1248
00:55:06,975 --> 00:55:08,074
the chest wall

1249
00:55:08,076 --> 00:55:09,608
<i>like from the Taser</i>

1250
00:55:09,610 --> 00:55:11,109
<i>or directly to the heart</i>

1251
00:55:11,111 --> 00:55:14,011
<i>as, uh, a pacemaker might do</i>

1252
00:55:14,013 --> 00:55:17,347
<i>can capture the normal heartbeat</i>

1253
00:55:17,349 --> 00:55:21,150
<i>and rev that rate up to
extremely rapid rates</i>

1254
00:55:21,152 --> 00:55:23,385
<i>four to six hundred times
a minute.</i>

1255
00:55:23,387 --> 00:55:26,221
<i>And it looks like a bag of
squiggly worms</i>

1256
00:55:26,223 --> 00:55:28,723
<i>with no effective squeeze</i>

1257
00:55:28,725 --> 00:55:31,125
<i>so blood is not
going to the brain</i>

1258
00:55:31,127 --> 00:55:32,659
<i>and to the other tissues</i>

1259
00:55:32,661 --> 00:55:36,596
and you die very quickly,
four to six minutes or so.

1260
00:55:36,598 --> 00:55:41,066
<i>- The earliest thing
we found out was that</i>

1261
00:55:41,068 --> 00:55:44,069
<i>through Dr. Zipes,
a Dr. Patrick Tchou</i>

1262
00:55:44,071 --> 00:55:45,904
<i>a well-known
electrophysiologist</i>

1263
00:55:45,906 --> 00:55:49,674
<i>of the Cleveland Clinic along</i>
<i>with another doctor,</i>
<i>Dr. Lakkireddy</i>

1264
00:55:49,676 --> 00:55:53,044
<i>had been commissioned to do</i>
<i>research</i>
<i>by TASER International</i>

1265
00:55:53,046 --> 00:55:55,713
<i>with respect to
the cardiac consequences</i>

1266
00:55:55,715 --> 00:55:57,548
<i>of... of their device.</i>

1267
00:55:57,550 --> 00:56:01,785
<i>This is back in 2005,
early part of 2006.</i>

1268
00:56:01,787 --> 00:56:04,387
-<i> You... you... you</i>
<i>picked pigs for your</i>
<i>experiments</i>

1269
00:56:04,389 --> 00:56:08,290
<i>because they have
a heart to body ratio weight</i>

1270
00:56:08,292 --> 00:56:12,193
<i>and cardiac anatomy that is
similar to humans, correct?</i>

1271
00:56:12,195 --> 00:56:16,297
- Yes, and it's also easier
to, uh, do experiments with.

1272
00:56:16,299 --> 00:56:20,367
<i>- They were getting effects
from the Taser discharges</i>

1273
00:56:20,369 --> 00:56:23,937
<i>on a swine model,
which indicated</i>

1274
00:56:23,939 --> 00:56:27,907
<i>that cardiac capture
could occur.</i>

1275
00:56:27,909 --> 00:56:30,042
Cardiac capture being
the precursor

1276
00:56:30,044 --> 00:56:34,145
to ventricular fibrillation
and ultimately cardiac arrest.

1277
00:56:34,147 --> 00:56:36,380
- When we'd gathered
all our data

1278
00:56:36,382 --> 00:56:39,816
uh, uh, for, uh,
from the experiments

1279
00:56:39,818 --> 00:56:44,186
we presented that data
to, to TASER.

1280
00:56:44,188 --> 00:56:46,655
<i>- When the science started
coming out</i>

1281
00:56:46,657 --> 00:56:49,658
it showed that there were
very substantial risks

1282
00:56:49,660 --> 00:56:50,692
to this device.

1283
00:56:50,694 --> 00:56:53,361
-<i> Uh, what was their response?</i>

1284
00:56:56,299 --> 00:57:00,301
-I don't recall exactly
whether what their
re... response was.

1285
00:57:00,303 --> 00:57:02,970
I... I seem to remember
that they were appreciative

1286
00:57:02,972 --> 00:57:05,672
of the results and thanked us
for the project.

1287
00:57:05,674 --> 00:57:08,608
<i>- I... if you take
Dr. Tchou's statement</i>

1288
00:57:08,610 --> 00:57:12,545
at face value,
they knew as early as 2005

1289
00:57:12,547 --> 00:57:15,948
sometime in 2005, while
the research was being conducted

1290
00:57:15,950 --> 00:57:19,951
<i>but certainly when the paper
was published in 2006</i>

1291
00:57:19,953 --> 00:57:22,987
<i>they knew that
this risk existed.</i>

1292
00:57:22,989 --> 00:57:26,390
Um, and at that point,
they did nothing.

1293
00:57:34,299 --> 00:57:36,766
<i>Here you're being told</i>

1294
00:57:36,768 --> 00:57:39,268
<i>by doctors that you paid for</i>

1295
00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:42,838
<i>that this is a risk,
and I'm saying, wasn't this</i>

1296
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,673
<i>spoken about in the company</i>

1297
00:57:44,675 --> 00:57:48,343
<i>and, and, and wasn't some
effort made to get a warning</i>

1298
00:57:48,345 --> 00:57:52,013
<i>out in, uh, the summer of 2006</i>

1299
00:57:52,015 --> 00:57:55,049
<i>so that this,
uh, police officers</i>

1300
00:57:55,051 --> 00:57:59,219
<i>who are using</i>
<i>your device would know that</i>
<i>this was a danger?</i>

1301
00:57:59,221 --> 00:58:01,120
- I would have to go back
and look at what was done.

1302
00:58:01,122 --> 00:58:04,123
I was not involved with testing,
research and development

1303
00:58:04,125 --> 00:58:07,793
when these results were being
evaluated by our team.

1304
00:58:07,795 --> 00:58:10,662
<i>- Is this the first time,
as you sit here today</i>

1305
00:58:10,664 --> 00:58:12,163
<i>that anyone
has pointed out to you</i>

1306
00:58:12,165 --> 00:58:16,232
<i>that Dr. Lakkireddy raised
this concern in 2006?</i>

1307
00:58:16,234 --> 00:58:18,500
- Yeah, I didn't even
read this before.

1308
00:58:18,502 --> 00:58:20,635
I don't remember
re... reading this.

1309
00:58:20,637 --> 00:58:24,171
- Uh, the assessment
of our scientific advisors

1310
00:58:24,173 --> 00:58:26,106
uh, was then,
and continues to be

1311
00:58:26,108 --> 00:58:29,576
that that risk
is exceedingly low in humans.

1312
00:58:29,578 --> 00:58:32,712
Uh, and, uh, frankly

1313
00:58:32,714 --> 00:58:35,481
uh, uh, during those,
uh, points in time

1314
00:58:35,483 --> 00:58:37,549
the findings were actually
continuing to show

1315
00:58:37,551 --> 00:58:39,784
significant safety margins

1316
00:58:39,786 --> 00:58:42,019
uh, even in the presence
of drugs like cocaine.

1317
00:58:42,021 --> 00:58:43,387
- Well, I disagree
with your statement.

1318
00:58:43,389 --> 00:58:45,222
We've never said
there's no risk.

1319
00:58:45,224 --> 00:58:48,658
Any, uh, walking out the door
of this building has risk.

1320
00:58:48,660 --> 00:58:51,293
There's risk associated with
things all the time.

1321
00:58:53,163 --> 00:58:56,798
And I believe
we do warn for, uh, risks.

1322
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,467
<i>- Well, I'm not talking about
risk of falling off a building</i>

1323
00:58:59,469 --> 00:59:01,068
<i>or getting hit
in the eye with a dart</i>

1324
00:59:01,070 --> 00:59:04,271
<i>I'm talking about the risk of
having a cardiac arrest</i>

1325
00:59:04,273 --> 00:59:07,107
<i>from ventricular fibrillation.</i>

1326
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:10,677
<i>Has your company ever said
that that cannot happen?</i>

1327
00:59:10,679 --> 00:59:12,412
- I've never heard
our company say

1328
00:59:12,414 --> 00:59:14,947
it cannot never one hundred
percent never happen.

1329
00:59:16,951 --> 00:59:18,250
<i>- You see exhibit number eight?</i>

1330
00:59:18,252 --> 00:59:20,018
-<i> I see exhibit number eight.</i>

1331
00:59:20,020 --> 00:59:23,321
-<i> And is that a PowerPoint</i>
<i>that was put out by your</i>
<i>company?</i>

1332
00:59:23,323 --> 00:59:24,789
-<i> Very early? Yes.</i>

1333
00:59:24,791 --> 00:59:28,259
-<i> And it says,</i>
<i>"No effect</i>
<i>on cardiac pumping?"</i>

1334
00:59:28,261 --> 00:59:30,594
-<i> That's the second</i>
<i>bullet point, yes.</i>
-<i> Okay.</i>

1335
00:59:30,596 --> 00:59:34,664
-And, at that point in time,
there was no evidence based
on that information.

1336
00:59:35,933 --> 00:59:37,232
-<i> Well..</i>

1337
00:59:38,802 --> 00:59:41,969
<i>you just testified under oath..</i>

1338
00:59:41,971 --> 00:59:45,072
<i>that you never said,
your company never said</i>

1339
00:59:45,074 --> 00:59:47,407
<i>that there was, uh</i>

1340
00:59:47,409 --> 00:59:51,043
<i>it was risk-free</i>
<i>when it came</i>
<i>to cardiac arrest.</i>

1341
00:59:51,045 --> 00:59:52,277
-You never say never.

1342
00:59:52,279 --> 00:59:54,145
At this point in time,
what Tasers do not do

1343
00:59:54,147 --> 00:59:56,080
we had not seen any effect on
cardiac pumping

1344
00:59:56,082 --> 00:59:57,981
whenever this slide
was put together.

1345
00:59:57,983 --> 00:59:59,682
<i>- Well, that's not
what you're saying here...</i>

1346
00:59:59,684 --> 01:00:02,284
- No, that's exactly what I'm
saying. Don't change my words.

1347
01:00:02,286 --> 01:00:03,952
-II think that this effect

1348
01:00:03,954 --> 01:00:06,154
is getting tremendous level
of attention

1349
01:00:06,156 --> 01:00:10,390
relative to the extremely rare
probability risk

1350
01:00:10,392 --> 01:00:11,691
uh, of it happening.

1351
01:00:11,693 --> 01:00:13,659
-Say that again.

1352
01:00:13,661 --> 01:00:16,328
-<i> Yeah, I mean, I... I,</i>
<i>let me rephrase what</i>
<i>I'm getting at here.</i>

1353
01:00:16,330 --> 01:00:20,465
<i>I mean, do you believe that</i>
<i>when it comes</i>
<i>to product safety</i>

1354
01:00:20,467 --> 01:00:23,434
<i>and warning the public about
the safety of products</i>

1355
01:00:23,436 --> 01:00:25,536
<i>that... that you're putting
into their hands</i>

1356
01:00:25,538 --> 01:00:29,006
<i>for use with themselves
or on other people</i>

1357
01:00:29,008 --> 01:00:31,041
<i>like, like your devices</i>

1358
01:00:31,043 --> 01:00:34,511
<i>that when it comes to warning
them about a potential risk</i>

1359
01:00:34,513 --> 01:00:37,179
<i>it's better to be safe
than sorry.</i>

1360
01:00:39,883 --> 01:00:42,249
- I... I still don't
understand the question.

1361
01:00:44,519 --> 01:00:46,652
- Ask Dr. Bozeman,
independent of Taser

1362
01:00:46,654 --> 01:00:48,487
US Department of Justice funded

1363
01:00:48,489 --> 01:00:51,823
1201 actual applications
in the field

1364
01:00:51,825 --> 01:00:54,826
99.75%

1365
01:00:54,828 --> 01:01:01,465
<i>99.75% of those cases resulted
in no significant injury.</i>

1366
01:01:01,467 --> 01:01:06,169
<i>1200 cases, no significant
injury of 99.75%?</i>

1367
01:01:06,171 --> 01:01:08,271
<i>That is the real proof
in the pudding.</i>

1368
01:01:08,273 --> 01:01:11,474
<i>That's where the critics
are afraid to go.</i>

1369
01:01:11,476 --> 01:01:13,108
<i>- Bozeman's study
doesn't prove anything.</i>

1370
01:01:13,110 --> 01:01:16,277
<i>I mean, first,
there were two deaths</i>

1371
01:01:16,279 --> 01:01:18,412
<i>and they eliminated those.</i>

1372
01:01:18,414 --> 01:01:20,380
Said, oh, those were due
to the Taser.

1373
01:01:20,382 --> 01:01:22,215
I mean, most people get Tasered

1374
01:01:22,217 --> 01:01:24,350
don't sustain
significant injuries.

1375
01:01:24,352 --> 01:01:26,352
I mean, that's absolutely true.

1376
01:01:27,455 --> 01:01:29,688
Just hurts like
a motherfucker, you know?

1377
01:01:29,690 --> 01:01:33,725
But it doesn't eliminate
the possibility
that it could still happen.

1378
01:01:33,727 --> 01:01:37,195
We took 1200 drunk drivers..

1379
01:01:37,197 --> 01:01:41,799
you know, people with
alcohol between 1.2 and 1.5..

1380
01:01:41,801 --> 01:01:44,935
and you know what, we... they
drove home from the bar..

1381
01:01:46,138 --> 01:01:48,771
and there wasn't
one traffic fatality.

1382
01:01:50,107 --> 01:01:52,807
So that proves that drunk
driving does not increase

1383
01:01:52,809 --> 01:01:56,109
the risk of... of death
due to traffic accident.

1384
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:02,081
I mean, that's... you know,
it's just... it's just bullshit.

1385
01:02:34,977 --> 01:02:38,678
-<i> You think about all the good</i>
<i>things that you went through</i>
<i>in life, and</i>

1386
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,714
and somehow this damn incident
just keeps coming back
in your head.

1387
01:02:44,050 --> 01:02:46,750
So all the good things
that you're thinking about

1388
01:02:46,752 --> 01:02:48,418
just kind of floats away

1389
01:02:48,420 --> 01:02:51,421
and everything from
that evening comes back.

1390
01:02:57,895 --> 01:02:59,194
<i>- When Stanley gets out
of his vehicle</i>

1391
01:02:59,196 --> 01:03:01,663
it's... it's... he comes to...
he parks right here

1392
01:03:01,665 --> 01:03:05,400
which, uh, as you can see,
right over here

1393
01:03:05,402 --> 01:03:08,503
behind this tree
is where, uh, Stanley lives.

1394
01:03:08,505 --> 01:03:12,206
- I heard sirens
and I opened my eyes.

1395
01:03:12,208 --> 01:03:14,074
I'd just laid down,
and I opened my eyes

1396
01:03:14,076 --> 01:03:18,078
and there was lights
shining into my bedroom.

1397
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,047
-<i> Stanley's here, uh,</i>
<i>he's going in and out</i>
<i>of his pockets</i>

1398
01:03:21,049 --> 01:03:23,783
<i>he's non-confrontational.</i>

1399
01:03:23,785 --> 01:03:25,885
<i>The officers allow him to go
in and out of his pockets</i>

1400
01:03:25,887 --> 01:03:27,186
<i>until the officer walks up</i>

1401
01:03:27,188 --> 01:03:28,787
<i>starts talking to him.</i>

1402
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:30,955
<i>Stanley reaches
in his pocket a few times</i>

1403
01:03:30,957 --> 01:03:34,158
<i>I think no less than
six or seven times.</i>

1404
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,660
<i>And, uh, he's trying to
make a call to his mother</i>

1405
01:03:36,662 --> 01:03:38,495
<i>who's in the house,
to let her know</i>

1406
01:03:38,497 --> 01:03:40,396
<i>uh, that there's, uh,
a traffic stop</i>

1407
01:03:40,398 --> 01:03:41,830
<i>or something's going on
out here.</i>

1408
01:03:41,832 --> 01:03:43,798
<i>- I did not grab my cell phone,</i>

1409
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,333
<i>and I was out
the door before he called.</i>

1410
01:03:46,335 --> 01:03:48,001
When I walked across the street

1411
01:03:48,003 --> 01:03:50,903
his face lit up
and said, "Mom!".

1412
01:03:50,905 --> 01:03:53,939
He was already standing outside.
He was calling me.

1413
01:03:53,941 --> 01:03:57,776
And he saw me in the middle of
the street and he said, "Mom!"

1414
01:03:57,778 --> 01:04:01,346
And I asked the officer,
I said, uh, "What is going on?"

1415
01:04:01,348 --> 01:04:03,715
He said, "At this time, ma'am,
we do not know."

1416
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:11,155
-<i> At about this time, uh,</i>
<i>a second,</i>
<i>a second car pulls up</i>

1417
01:04:11,157 --> 01:04:13,457
which is Sergeant Newbrough,
the supervisor

1418
01:04:13,459 --> 01:04:16,326
pulls in front,
another car pulls up behind

1419
01:04:16,328 --> 01:04:19,195
which is, uh, Officer Baird

1420
01:04:19,197 --> 01:04:20,829
<i>and Officer Dotson.</i>

1421
01:04:21,998 --> 01:04:25,265
<i>So now you have
4 police officers</i>

1422
01:04:25,267 --> 01:04:27,100
<i>2 K9 dogs</i>

1423
01:04:27,102 --> 01:04:30,536
<i>uh, on the scene of a,
uh, speeding violation.</i>

1424
01:04:32,373 --> 01:04:34,806
Stanley hands him
a driver's license

1425
01:04:34,808 --> 01:04:37,141
Breyfogle steps to
the rear of the car

1426
01:04:37,143 --> 01:04:39,977
to run the,
the license information

1427
01:04:39,979 --> 01:04:42,713
while Officer Dotson
and Officer Baird

1428
01:04:42,715 --> 01:04:46,183
are, uh, standing up here
next to Stanley.

1429
01:04:46,185 --> 01:04:48,652
<i>For unknown reasons</i>

1430
01:04:48,654 --> 01:04:53,289
<i>Officer Baird, uh,
places his hands on Stanley.</i>

1431
01:04:53,291 --> 01:04:56,525
<i>Stanley looks, uh, in...</i>
<i>in the video he looks kind of</i>
<i>confused</i>

1432
01:04:56,527 --> 01:04:58,793
<i>as to why he's being touched.</i>

1433
01:04:59,695 --> 01:05:01,795
Apparently, at one point in time

1434
01:05:01,797 --> 01:05:04,664
uh, two or three officers
had their hands on Stanley

1435
01:05:04,666 --> 01:05:06,198
and were going to handcuff him

1436
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:07,966
<i>and, for whatever reason</i>

1437
01:05:07,968 --> 01:05:12,536
<i>they all decided
to, uh, let go of Stanley.</i>

1438
01:05:16,341 --> 01:05:18,874
<i>- So he already
had him in the hold.</i>

1439
01:05:18,876 --> 01:05:21,209
He lets go of him..

1440
01:05:21,211 --> 01:05:24,679
and Tanley... Stanley
took a couple of steps back.

1441
01:05:24,681 --> 01:05:27,248
- Stanley gets over
into this area

1442
01:05:27,250 --> 01:05:29,883
he kinda moves out of range

1443
01:05:29,885 --> 01:05:32,385
from the police car's camera.

1444
01:05:32,387 --> 01:05:35,588
The dash cam doesn't catch
the action that's going on

1445
01:05:35,590 --> 01:05:37,890
off to the side of the,
the street.

1446
01:05:37,892 --> 01:05:40,325
-There's no dispute

1447
01:05:40,327 --> 01:05:42,226
on any of the witnesses
or anything

1448
01:05:42,228 --> 01:05:44,061
Stanley took a couple
of steps back

1449
01:05:44,063 --> 01:05:46,396
he had his arms up in the air

1450
01:05:46,398 --> 01:05:49,999
and he said,
"I'm gonna Tase you."

1451
01:05:50,001 --> 01:05:52,835
-We can hear on the dash cam

1452
01:05:52,837 --> 01:05:55,003
on the audio recording

1453
01:05:55,005 --> 01:05:57,405
you can hear, uh, the words

1454
01:05:57,407 --> 01:05:59,640
<i>a conversation
going on back and forth</i>

1455
01:05:59,642 --> 01:06:01,642
<i>and then you hear, uh, multiple,</i>

1456
01:06:01,644 --> 01:06:04,444
<i>different bur... outbursts
of screams.</i>

1457
01:06:28,201 --> 01:06:31,302
- I just wanted to save him!
I just wanted to help him!

1458
01:06:31,304 --> 01:06:35,305
They wouldn't let me,
so I ran in and got my husband.

1459
01:06:36,441 --> 01:06:38,574
I said, "Kenny,
you need to get up now."

1460
01:06:38,576 --> 01:06:41,109
I never dreamt
when I walked out that door that

1461
01:06:41,111 --> 01:06:43,744
that's what I would be facing,
or I would've woke him up

1462
01:06:43,746 --> 01:06:44,878
and took him with me.

1463
01:06:46,681 --> 01:06:49,448
- And when I went out there,
and I went around Stanley

1464
01:06:49,450 --> 01:06:52,317
and I tried to get over there,
they would not let us

1465
01:06:52,319 --> 01:06:55,286
no further than from the curb
to him..

1466
01:06:56,922 --> 01:06:58,655
<i>and threatened to Taser</i>

1467
01:06:58,657 --> 01:07:00,990
<i>threatened to throw us in jail</i>

1468
01:07:00,992 --> 01:07:02,791
<i>threatened to arrest my wife.</i>

1469
01:07:07,129 --> 01:07:10,663
<i>- Stanley Harlan
breaks my heart.</i>

1470
01:07:10,665 --> 01:07:13,132
<i>These other cases
do as well, but..</i>

1471
01:07:14,635 --> 01:07:17,535
<i>here you see it all
played out on video.</i>

1472
01:07:31,717 --> 01:07:35,351
<i>Within a minute
or a minute-and-a-half</i>

1473
01:07:35,353 --> 01:07:37,753
<i>you see his head go totally back</i>

1474
01:07:37,755 --> 01:07:39,888
<i>with agonal respirations</i>

1475
01:07:39,890 --> 01:07:43,324
<i>and this poor young man
is dying.</i>

1476
01:07:43,326 --> 01:07:46,027
<i>He's got ventricular
fibrillation.</i>

1477
01:08:00,009 --> 01:08:02,743
-<i> As we all stood there</i>

1478
01:08:02,745 --> 01:08:04,511
<i>and watched Stanley die</i>

1479
01:08:04,513 --> 01:08:07,247
<i>these officers
stood around there</i>

1480
01:08:07,249 --> 01:08:09,249
<i>and did nothin'.</i>

1481
01:08:14,088 --> 01:08:18,957
- The police officers
are just standing around

1482
01:08:18,959 --> 01:08:21,592
as I know he's got

1483
01:08:21,594 --> 01:08:25,162
ventricular fibrillation
and is dying.

1484
01:08:25,164 --> 01:08:26,463
And they don't know that

1485
01:08:26,465 --> 01:08:28,331
they've not been taught that

1486
01:08:28,333 --> 01:08:30,232
and they don't think of that.

1487
01:08:30,234 --> 01:08:32,367
And this is a life that

1488
01:08:32,369 --> 01:08:34,769
could've been saved, obviously.

1489
01:08:34,771 --> 01:08:38,139
<i>- 2-14, we need an ambulance
to expedite.</i>

1490
01:08:39,142 --> 01:08:40,908
<i>- 2-14,
they have been advised.</i>

1491
01:08:40,910 --> 01:08:41,942
<i>I'm on the line with them now.</i>

1492
01:08:41,944 --> 01:08:43,109
<i>They say they are in route.</i>

1493
01:08:43,111 --> 01:08:45,244
<i>Just information.</i>

1494
01:08:45,246 --> 01:08:46,778
-<i> 2-0..</i>

1495
01:08:46,780 --> 01:08:48,913
-<i> Oh, my God!</i>

1496
01:08:48,915 --> 01:08:51,215
<i>Stanley!</i>

1497
01:08:51,217 --> 01:08:52,249
<i>No!</i>

1498
01:08:57,822 --> 01:09:00,455
<i>Oh, God!</i>

1499
01:09:00,457 --> 01:09:01,956
<i>Will you get him help!</i>

1500
01:09:01,958 --> 01:09:04,692
<i>My God! My son is dying!</i>

1501
01:09:04,694 --> 01:09:06,193
-<i> Come on!</i>

1502
01:09:13,033 --> 01:09:14,065
-<i> Help!</i>

1503
01:09:36,088 --> 01:09:38,088
-<i> And they had this weapon</i>

1504
01:09:38,090 --> 01:09:40,990
<i>that they don't know
that much about</i>

1505
01:09:40,992 --> 01:09:43,993
<i>and they used it on him,
and this is the results of it.</i>

1506
01:09:48,366 --> 01:09:51,100
<i>- And what is the gist
of your disagreement</i>

1507
01:09:51,102 --> 01:09:54,970
<i>with, uh, Mr. Braidwood's..</i>

1508
01:09:54,972 --> 01:09:57,439
<i>uh, findings?</i>

1509
01:09:57,441 --> 01:09:59,307
I think a lot of them
were based politically

1510
01:09:59,309 --> 01:10:01,275
not relevant to the facts.

1511
01:10:01,277 --> 01:10:05,245
-<i> What... what... what is the</i>
<i>the... the</i>
<i>politics of this?</i>

1512
01:10:05,247 --> 01:10:08,581
<i>I mean, politically,
to me, means</i>

1513
01:10:08,583 --> 01:10:11,650
<i>sort of trying
to satisfy a constituency.</i>

1514
01:10:11,652 --> 01:10:14,285
-Correct.
-<i> What's the constituency</i>
<i>that..</i>

1515
01:10:14,287 --> 01:10:15,919
-The public of Canada.

1516
01:10:15,921 --> 01:10:17,921
<i>- Check, check, check,
2, 3, 4, 5, 6.</i>

1517
01:10:17,923 --> 01:10:21,691
<i>1, 2. 1, 2. 1, 2. 1, 2. 1, 2.
1, 2. 1, 2. 1, 2. 1, 2. 1, 2.</i>

1518
01:10:21,693 --> 01:10:24,460
<i>Check, check, check.
2, 3, 4, 5. 1, 2.</i>

1519
01:10:24,462 --> 01:10:26,862
<i>1, 2. 1, 2. 1, 2.</i>

1520
01:10:26,864 --> 01:10:28,730
<i>Check, check.
Good there?</i>

1521
01:10:28,732 --> 01:10:31,432
<i>- I would like to spend
a few minutes</i>

1522
01:10:31,434 --> 01:10:33,634
summarizing my most significant

1523
01:10:33,636 --> 01:10:36,737
findings and recommendations.

1524
01:10:36,739 --> 01:10:40,807
This report makes
19 recommendations

1525
01:10:40,809 --> 01:10:45,244
respecting the appropriate
use of conducted energy weapons

1526
01:10:45,246 --> 01:10:47,579
including appropriate training.

1527
01:10:47,581 --> 01:10:50,515
It has been left up
to each police department

1528
01:10:50,517 --> 01:10:53,818
to develop its own
training programs.

1529
01:10:53,820 --> 01:10:56,687
The result has been
a patchwork quilt

1530
01:10:56,689 --> 01:10:59,222
of inconsistent policies

1531
01:10:59,224 --> 01:11:03,059
among the police department,
and an inappropriate reliance

1532
01:11:03,061 --> 01:11:06,729
on the manufacturer's
training materials.

1533
01:11:06,731 --> 01:11:09,264
<i>- What happened in that case,
with Braidwood</i>

1534
01:11:09,266 --> 01:11:11,733
and... and
the Dziekanski case was

1535
01:11:11,735 --> 01:11:14,035
horrendous speculation

1536
01:11:14,037 --> 01:11:15,903
<i>that Taser was the cause
of death.</i>

1537
01:11:15,905 --> 01:11:18,038
A lot of things,
you know, literally

1538
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:19,939
you mention things that go wrong
in an agency

1539
01:11:19,941 --> 01:11:22,174
some of the things
are not done on purpose.

1540
01:11:22,176 --> 01:11:24,309
Some of those things that,
you know, that's use of force.

1541
01:11:24,311 --> 01:11:25,943
Things can go wrong.

1542
01:11:25,945 --> 01:11:28,245
What was this guy doing
in the airport for 9 hours,
you know?

1543
01:11:28,247 --> 01:11:30,981
Flying, you know,
off his cigarettes

1544
01:11:30,983 --> 01:11:32,983
no alcohol, you know..

1545
01:11:32,985 --> 01:11:34,784
All these things come into play.

1546
01:11:36,687 --> 01:11:37,686
-<i> Oh.</i>

1547
01:11:37,688 --> 01:11:39,621
-<i> The videotape</i>

1548
01:11:39,623 --> 01:11:41,155
<i>shows officers coming to him.</i>

1549
01:11:41,157 --> 01:11:42,523
<i>They don't understand
why they were there</i>

1550
01:11:42,525 --> 01:11:44,358
they don't understand the stuff
that he was doing before.

1551
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:46,960
It was a very
irrational behavior,
and grabbing a stapler.

1552
01:11:46,962 --> 01:11:48,161
Not a little tiny one, big one.

1553
01:11:48,163 --> 01:11:49,695
-<i> The Braidwood enquiry</i>

1554
01:11:49,697 --> 01:11:52,297
<i>released a stinging report
last month.</i>

1555
01:11:52,299 --> 01:11:53,665
<i>And it stated that</i>

1556
01:11:53,667 --> 01:11:57,135
<i>based on medical evidence,
Tasers can kill.</i>

1557
01:11:57,137 --> 01:11:58,936
-Conducted energy weapons

1558
01:11:58,938 --> 01:12:01,238
do have the capacity

1559
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,807
to cause serious injury
or death.

1560
01:12:03,809 --> 01:12:05,175
<i>- And then with Braidwood
looking at</i>

1561
01:12:05,177 --> 01:12:06,342
<i>all the different things</i>

1562
01:12:06,344 --> 01:12:08,277
<i>they... they
brought in experts</i>

1563
01:12:08,279 --> 01:12:09,645
<i>they brought in people that had</i>

1564
01:12:09,647 --> 01:12:11,446
<i>no business
being there in my book</i>

1565
01:12:11,448 --> 01:12:13,314
<i>and then to ignore some
of the human tests</i>

1566
01:12:13,316 --> 01:12:15,883
<i>that we provided them,
that was wrong.</i>

1567
01:12:15,885 --> 01:12:17,150
<i>Um, we disagree with that.</i>

1568
01:12:17,152 --> 01:12:18,885
<i>So we did the due process</i>

1569
01:12:18,887 --> 01:12:20,019
<i>and we filed a complaint
with that.</i>

1570
01:12:20,021 --> 01:12:21,653
<i>- The process by which
the conclusions</i>

1571
01:12:21,655 --> 01:12:24,288
and recommendations
were determined

1572
01:12:24,290 --> 01:12:26,123
was not fair.

1573
01:12:26,125 --> 01:12:27,958
And it wasn't fair to TASER

1574
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:30,860
and... and they were not fair
to the public at large.

1575
01:12:30,862 --> 01:12:32,695
<i>- It's rare for public enquiries</i>

1576
01:12:32,697 --> 01:12:35,064
<i>to face such legal challenges
in Canada</i>

1577
01:12:35,066 --> 01:12:37,199
<i>but critics are not surprised</i>

1578
01:12:37,201 --> 01:12:40,468
<i>considering how much is at
stake for TASER International.</i>

1579
01:12:40,470 --> 01:12:42,203
This goes beyond BC

1580
01:12:42,205 --> 01:12:43,837
according
to the company's lawyer

1581
01:12:43,839 --> 01:12:45,738
the commission's
finding may affect

1582
01:12:45,740 --> 01:12:49,174
its financial interest
and reputation.

1583
01:12:49,176 --> 01:12:51,843
Fidek Zarach, CBC News,
Vancouver.

1584
01:13:28,213 --> 01:13:29,645
<i>- Good day, ladies and gentlemen</i>

1585
01:13:29,647 --> 01:13:32,280
<i>and welcome to the TASER
International Incorporated</i>

1586
01:13:32,282 --> 01:13:33,614
<i>customer update.</i>

1587
01:13:33,616 --> 01:13:34,748
-<i> Thank you very much.</i>

1588
01:13:34,750 --> 01:13:35,949
<i>Uh, and we appreciate everybody</i>

1589
01:13:35,951 --> 01:13:37,583
<i>giving us your time
this afternoon</i>

1590
01:13:37,585 --> 01:13:39,918
<i>to, uh, talk about
this important topic.</i>

1591
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,620
<i>Uh, I wanna start</i>
<i>by addressing</i>
<i>a couple of the questions</i>

1592
01:13:42,622 --> 01:13:45,222
<i>we've been receiving,
uh, over e-mail.</i>

1593
01:13:45,224 --> 01:13:47,324
<i>The first, uh, the first one is</i>

1594
01:13:47,326 --> 01:13:50,994
<i>are chest hits
with a Taser dangerous?</i>

1595
01:13:50,996 --> 01:13:55,064
<i>And the answer to that
is definitively no.</i>

1596
01:13:55,066 --> 01:13:58,767
<i>So many people have said,</i>
<i>okay, if the probability is so</i>
<i>low</i>

1597
01:13:58,769 --> 01:14:01,469
<i>w... why does TASER
have to warn about this?</i>

1598
01:14:01,471 --> 01:14:03,003
<i>The biggest reason here,
in my mind</i>

1599
01:14:03,005 --> 01:14:05,805
<i>is risk management
and avoiding the controversy.</i>

1600
01:14:05,807 --> 01:14:08,808
<i>Another question we got was,
will TASER help defend cases?</i>

1601
01:14:08,810 --> 01:14:11,343
<i>There's some anxiety out there
from officers</i>

1602
01:14:11,345 --> 01:14:14,145
<i>that have written directly
to me saying</i>

1603
01:14:14,147 --> 01:14:16,647
<i>does this mean
TASER's walking away?</i>

1604
01:14:16,649 --> 01:14:18,615
<i>Will TASER help defend officers</i>

1605
01:14:18,617 --> 01:14:20,416
<i>where there's chest shots
involved?</i>

1606
01:14:20,418 --> 01:14:23,452
<i>And the answer
is unequivocally yes.</i>

1607
01:14:23,454 --> 01:14:26,888
<i>We pride ourselves,
uh, that we stand up</i>

1608
01:14:26,890 --> 01:14:30,291
<i>both for our technology
and for officers here.</i>

1609
01:14:30,293 --> 01:14:32,860
<i>Um, so, hopefully,
this can help to put</i>

1610
01:14:32,862 --> 01:14:34,795
<i>some of the debate behind us</i>

1611
01:14:34,797 --> 01:14:36,530
<i>and we can move forward
with life</i>

1612
01:14:36,532 --> 01:14:38,498
<i>uh, with people
focusing on the fact</i>

1613
01:14:38,500 --> 01:14:40,833
<i>that every study I'm aware
of that's looked at it</i>

1614
01:14:40,835 --> 01:14:43,001
<i>has found that the Taser is</i>

1615
01:14:43,003 --> 01:14:44,702
<i>if not the safest force option</i>

1616
01:14:44,704 --> 01:14:47,771
<i>the only other one that's
even close is pepper spray.</i>

1617
01:14:47,773 --> 01:14:50,240
<i>- So... so there is
an acknowledgment</i>

1618
01:14:50,242 --> 01:14:53,243
<i>that there's
a... a minute possibility</i>

1619
01:14:53,245 --> 01:14:56,746
<i>um, that a shot to the chest</i>

1620
01:14:56,748 --> 01:14:59,281
<i>uh, could result
in cardiac arrest.</i>

1621
01:14:59,283 --> 01:15:01,249
<i>- I think the better way I,
that... that</i>

1622
01:15:01,251 --> 01:15:03,050
<i>I would answer that
not... not better but</i>

1623
01:15:03,052 --> 01:15:05,085
<i>the... from the company's
perspective is</i>

1624
01:15:05,087 --> 01:15:07,720
<i>we cannot prove it's zero.</i>

1625
01:15:07,722 --> 01:15:09,188
<i>- Thanks to all of you at TASER</i>

1626
01:15:09,190 --> 01:15:11,356
<i>for what you've done
for law enforcement.</i>

1627
01:15:11,358 --> 01:15:12,690
<i>- Thank you,
hey, and... and I would say</i>

1628
01:15:12,692 --> 01:15:15,325
<i>sorry for, uh, you know,
this situation.</i>

1629
01:15:15,327 --> 01:15:16,693
<i>I don't enjoy it either.</i>

1630
01:15:16,695 --> 01:15:18,027
<i>Unfortunately,
we live in a country</i>

1631
01:15:18,029 --> 01:15:19,895
<i>where you spill hot coffee
in your lap</i>

1632
01:15:19,897 --> 01:15:21,830
<i>and you can sue
for 10 million dollars.</i>

1633
01:15:21,832 --> 01:15:24,199
<i>Uh, it's... it's
a bit ludicrous</i>

1634
01:15:24,201 --> 01:15:26,467
<i>that our pork situation</i>

1635
01:15:26,469 --> 01:15:29,102
<i>puts us all into
these circumstances</i>

1636
01:15:29,104 --> 01:15:30,403
<i>but it's the world we live in.</i>

1637
01:15:30,405 --> 01:15:32,204
<i>So, appreciate</i>
<i>your understanding</i> and support

1638
01:15:32,206 --> 01:15:33,905
<i>and, uh, stay safe out there.</i>

1639
01:15:33,907 --> 01:15:34,906
<i>- Okay,
that was great information.</i>

1640
01:15:34,908 --> 01:15:36,007
<i>We're a department of at least</i>

1641
01:15:36,009 --> 01:15:37,308
<i>13,000 officers.</i>

1642
01:15:37,310 --> 01:15:39,109
<i>We just wanna make sure that, uh</i>

1643
01:15:39,111 --> 01:15:40,844
<i>uh, we clarify these things.</i>

1644
01:15:40,846 --> 01:15:41,878
-<i> Yep.</i>

1645
01:15:46,917 --> 01:15:49,083
- When they changed
the target area..

1646
01:15:49,085 --> 01:15:50,818
and said, "Hey,
you shouldn't shoot people

1647
01:15:50,820 --> 01:15:52,619
in the chest
with these things."

1648
01:15:52,621 --> 01:15:54,754
Um..

1649
01:15:54,756 --> 01:15:58,891
Yeah, I don't.. You know,
that... that's kind of..

1650
01:15:58,893 --> 01:16:00,826
It made me look at it
kind of crooked and say,
wait a minute here.

1651
01:16:00,828 --> 01:16:02,427
Why are they,
why are they saying this

1652
01:16:02,429 --> 01:16:03,861
if for all these years
they've said

1653
01:16:03,863 --> 01:16:06,430
this is a completely safe tool

1654
01:16:06,432 --> 01:16:07,798
and you don't have
anything to worry about.

1655
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:10,167
We've got all this background
an... and documentation

1656
01:16:10,169 --> 01:16:12,269
to support our claim.

1657
01:16:12,271 --> 01:16:14,271
It's..

1658
01:16:17,509 --> 01:16:20,176
It's kind of a catch 22,
you know?

1659
01:16:20,178 --> 01:16:21,877
Do you

1660
01:16:21,879 --> 01:16:23,411
use it in the hopes
that it works fine

1661
01:16:23,413 --> 01:16:24,912
and nothing happens or

1662
01:16:24,914 --> 01:16:26,413
or do you not use it and

1663
01:16:26,415 --> 01:16:28,816
hope everything works fine
and nothing happens?

1664
01:16:28,818 --> 01:16:30,017
So..

1665
01:16:46,134 --> 01:16:47,967
-<i> We did get into a case</i>

1666
01:16:47,969 --> 01:16:50,869
<i>and we were under the belief</i>

1667
01:16:50,871 --> 01:16:52,437
<i>from the beginning</i>

1668
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:53,971
that TASER International

1669
01:16:53,973 --> 01:16:55,772
would indemnify the city

1670
01:16:55,774 --> 01:16:57,340
if there was a lawsuit

1671
01:16:57,342 --> 01:16:59,075
or they would send experts in

1672
01:16:59,077 --> 01:17:01,610
or there was, uh,
some monetary judgment made.

1673
01:17:01,612 --> 01:17:03,511
And we found that, uh

1674
01:17:03,513 --> 01:17:07,381
we got into a,
a case where we were sued

1675
01:17:07,383 --> 01:17:09,483
and TASER did not
indemnify the city.

1676
01:17:09,485 --> 01:17:11,718
So, I mean, obviously

1677
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:13,953
um, that was disturbing to us

1678
01:17:13,955 --> 01:17:17,690
and we can see that
the playing field

1679
01:17:17,692 --> 01:17:19,725
was changing, and it was
changing on the other end.

1680
01:17:19,727 --> 01:17:22,627
It was changing
on TASER International's end.

1681
01:17:22,629 --> 01:17:23,961
<i>- Nobody told us
that these Tasers</i>

1682
01:17:23,963 --> 01:17:26,296
<i>were gonna kill people,
you know?</i>

1683
01:17:26,298 --> 01:17:28,965
<i>You come out</i>
<i>with a sales pitch</i>
<i>you say this</i>

1684
01:17:28,967 --> 01:17:31,000
<i>and then when it doesn't
work out, you just disappear?</i>

1685
01:17:31,002 --> 01:17:32,167
That's not right either.

1686
01:17:32,169 --> 01:17:34,502
Because I'll tell you what, if I

1687
01:17:34,504 --> 01:17:37,705
if I discharge pepper spray
and it makes a guy go blind

1688
01:17:37,707 --> 01:17:39,540
I expect guardian to come in

1689
01:17:39,542 --> 01:17:41,441
and ex... I... explain,
'cause I don't

1690
01:17:41,443 --> 01:17:44,110
far as I'm told, it doesn't
make anybody go blind.
I've never seen it.

1691
01:17:44,112 --> 01:17:47,213
But if that were to happen,
damn it, they better come in.
That's not my fault.

1692
01:17:47,215 --> 01:17:49,782
I'm, I... I, if I knew
that about pepper spray

1693
01:17:49,784 --> 01:17:51,483
I wouldn't use it, you know?

1694
01:17:51,485 --> 01:17:54,052
Yo... you swore
this wasn't gonna happen.

1695
01:17:54,054 --> 01:17:57,288
You swore that this was a..

1696
01:17:57,290 --> 01:17:59,690
That this was
a statistically normal thing

1697
01:17:59,692 --> 01:18:03,993
that these people were not dying
at any more of a unusual rate

1698
01:18:03,995 --> 01:18:06,562
than they would have
absent the Taser, you know?

1699
01:18:08,165 --> 01:18:11,332
<i>- Everybody wants the best,
and, uh, we thought</i>

1700
01:18:11,334 --> 01:18:14,401
we thought we were doing
the right thing at the time.

1701
01:18:24,612 --> 01:18:26,645
<i>- This is the beginning
of tape number 2</i>

1702
01:18:26,647 --> 01:18:28,913
<i>of the video deposition
of Patrick Smith.</i>

1703
01:18:28,915 --> 01:18:33,917
<i>- Now, when..
Let us go back to 1993.</i>

1704
01:18:33,919 --> 01:18:37,687
<i>And... your dining room table.</i>

1705
01:18:37,689 --> 01:18:39,355
<i>Were you doing
anything to follow</i>

1706
01:18:39,357 --> 01:18:41,790
<i>what was happening
in research and development?</i>

1707
01:18:41,792 --> 01:18:44,025
- General updates,
but nothing specific.

1708
01:18:44,027 --> 01:18:46,193
Again, we... we all
can't do everything

1709
01:18:46,195 --> 01:18:48,995
and that was my brother's
responsibility.

1710
01:18:48,997 --> 01:18:50,997
I trusted him in that role.

1711
01:18:52,633 --> 01:18:54,899
-<i> So, what did he tell you?</i>

1712
01:18:54,901 --> 01:18:56,700
-Ready? 1, 2, 3.

1713
01:18:56,702 --> 01:18:58,168
-Hit!

1714
01:18:58,170 --> 01:19:00,003
- It's no problem.
- Alright..

1715
01:19:00,005 --> 01:19:03,573
<i>- Back in the days
of the 5 watt system</i>

1716
01:19:03,575 --> 01:19:06,042
<i>when those
they were testing it on</i>

1717
01:19:06,044 --> 01:19:09,145
<i>were fighting through
the 5 watt system</i>

1718
01:19:09,147 --> 01:19:12,114
<i>TASER International
was in a tough spot.</i>

1719
01:19:12,116 --> 01:19:13,949
<i>What are they gonna do here?</i>

1720
01:19:13,951 --> 01:19:18,319
<i>- The company was really
stretched very thin.</i>

1721
01:19:18,321 --> 01:19:21,021
<i>It was still a privately
held corporation</i>

1722
01:19:21,023 --> 01:19:23,556
<i>and it had used
all its resources</i>

1723
01:19:23,558 --> 01:19:26,258
<i>to try to get this product
to the market.</i>

1724
01:19:26,260 --> 01:19:29,561
- By 1999, they didn't
have a viable product to market.

1725
01:19:29,563 --> 01:19:31,863
They were not getting outside
venture capital funding.

1726
01:19:31,865 --> 01:19:34,098
If... if the business
goes belly-up

1727
01:19:34,100 --> 01:19:35,265
they lose their parents' money.

1728
01:19:35,267 --> 01:19:37,000
<i>They had $50,000 in the bank</i>

1729
01:19:37,002 --> 01:19:39,502
<i>and 2.7 million dollars
in debt.</i>

1730
01:19:39,504 --> 01:19:41,871
<i>They were gonna go bankrupt.</i>

1731
01:19:41,873 --> 01:19:44,173
-<i> So you had those discussions</i>

1732
01:19:44,175 --> 01:19:46,875
<i>with your brother.</i>

1733
01:19:46,877 --> 01:19:48,176
<i>What was your understanding</i>

1734
01:19:48,178 --> 01:19:50,144
<i>of what he was going to do?</i>

1735
01:19:50,146 --> 01:19:52,179
- Change the output
to have an effect

1736
01:19:52,181 --> 01:19:54,948
on people that were motivated.

1737
01:19:54,950 --> 01:19:57,050
-<i> And did he tell you</i>

1738
01:19:57,052 --> 01:19:59,585
<i>how he intended
to change the output?</i>

1739
01:19:59,587 --> 01:20:01,053
-No.

1740
01:20:01,055 --> 01:20:03,722
-<i> Go baby, get him.</i>

1741
01:20:06,460 --> 01:20:08,193
advance.

1742
01:20:08,195 --> 01:20:09,527
-Aah!

1743
01:20:09,529 --> 01:20:11,462
<i>- Okay, basically,
you cranked up the power</i>

1744
01:20:11,464 --> 01:20:16,032
<i>of the Air Taser 34000, 4 times.</i>

1745
01:20:16,034 --> 01:20:18,234
- We increased the energy
and the power

1746
01:20:18,236 --> 01:20:19,668
by roughly 4 times

1747
01:20:19,670 --> 01:20:23,405
and the output charge
by roughly 3 times.

1748
01:20:23,407 --> 01:20:25,840
<i>- Well, were you personally
concerned</i>

1749
01:20:25,842 --> 01:20:28,909
<i>that if the effectiveness
of the device was changed</i>

1750
01:20:28,911 --> 01:20:32,379
<i>it might also become
a more dangerous device?</i>

1751
01:20:32,381 --> 01:20:34,614
- Was I concerned that
making it effective

1752
01:20:34,616 --> 01:20:36,382
would be making it
more dangerous?

1753
01:20:36,384 --> 01:20:37,850
-<i> Right.</i>

1754
01:20:37,852 --> 01:20:40,552
- It wasn't, it was something
I knew that

1755
01:20:40,554 --> 01:20:43,187
they were gonna be addressing
in research and development.

1756
01:20:43,189 --> 01:20:44,855
<i>- Were you concerned
that... that... that</i>

1757
01:20:44,857 --> 01:20:47,924
<i>you might be distributing
a product that was not safe?</i>

1758
01:20:47,926 --> 01:20:49,225
-<i> Objection to form.</i>

1759
01:20:49,227 --> 01:20:51,227
- Uh, I didn't know
it was unsafe at the time

1760
01:20:51,229 --> 01:20:54,229
so I'm... I'm not sure that
I buy into that argument.

1761
01:20:55,732 --> 01:20:57,164
-<i> Okay.</i>

1762
01:20:57,166 --> 01:20:59,399
<i>- So they did some
very minimal studies</i>

1763
01:20:59,401 --> 01:21:00,767
<i>they weren't a public company</i>

1764
01:21:00,769 --> 01:21:02,902
<i>and, on humans,
they really were just</i>

1765
01:21:02,904 --> 01:21:04,937
<i>looking for volunteers
and giving them</i>

1766
01:21:04,939 --> 01:21:06,138
<i>very short shocks</i>

1767
01:21:06,140 --> 01:21:08,673
<i>that did not
replicate the experience</i>

1768
01:21:08,675 --> 01:21:10,675
of the Taser in the field.

1769
01:21:10,677 --> 01:21:13,577
<i>- It's exactly
the same mechanism</i>

1770
01:21:13,579 --> 01:21:16,112
<i>of... of product development</i>

1771
01:21:16,114 --> 01:21:18,681
<i>that I'd learned, uh,
when working, uh</i>

1772
01:21:18,683 --> 01:21:20,916
uh, developing
a project management system

1773
01:21:20,918 --> 01:21:24,686
for a, uh,
pharmaceutical company.

1774
01:21:24,688 --> 01:21:28,822
- That, the statement is... is
ludicrous to say the least.

1775
01:21:28,824 --> 01:21:31,424
<i>If you look at
the testing that they did</i>

1776
01:21:31,426 --> 01:21:36,262
<i>which encompasses
approximately 950 people</i>

1777
01:21:36,264 --> 01:21:39,164
<i>the vast majority
of those exposures</i>

1778
01:21:39,166 --> 01:21:41,833
<i>were for a second or less.</i>

1779
01:21:41,835 --> 01:21:45,236
But they never analyzed
any physiological changes

1780
01:21:45,238 --> 01:21:46,937
in blood chemistry
when they did that.

1781
01:21:46,939 --> 01:21:48,571
-<i> They used it on each other.</i>

1782
01:21:48,573 --> 01:21:51,607
<i>Now, they're healthy guys
who are not high</i>

1783
01:21:51,609 --> 01:21:53,809
<i>and they decided, this is safe.</i>

1784
01:21:53,811 --> 01:21:56,678
<i>And they went out</i>
<i>to the police under that</i>
<i>circumstance.</i>

1785
01:21:56,680 --> 01:21:59,580
<i>And they... probably
they believed it was safe.</i>

1786
01:21:59,582 --> 01:22:01,782
- Here in Canada,
we had a massive failure

1787
01:22:01,784 --> 01:22:03,049
of the regulatory arm.

1788
01:22:03,051 --> 01:22:06,619
<i>A guy, uh, uh, Laur,
wrote a report saying.</i>

1789
01:22:06,621 --> 01:22:07,953
<i>Uh, you know,
I had a look at this</i>

1790
01:22:07,955 --> 01:22:09,621
<i>and this thing's
been exhaustively tested</i>

1791
01:22:09,623 --> 01:22:12,123
<i>and... and,
uh, it's no problem.</i>

1792
01:22:12,125 --> 01:22:14,458
<i>Uh, we can introduce it
here in British Columbia.</i>

1793
01:22:14,460 --> 01:22:15,992
<i>And then it was introduced.</i>

1794
01:22:15,994 --> 01:22:19,128
<i>- I don't recall the names
of people who advised me</i>

1795
01:22:19,130 --> 01:22:21,864
<i>but I do remember
receiving advice</i>

1796
01:22:21,866 --> 01:22:24,533
<i>that it had been
vigorously tested.</i>

1797
01:22:24,535 --> 01:22:28,569
I was given, um,
uh, some literature

1798
01:22:28,571 --> 01:22:31,505
that said that
it's been vigorously tested.

1799
01:22:31,507 --> 01:22:32,739
And I approved it.

1800
01:22:32,741 --> 01:22:35,074
<i>- Advanced Taser hit,
buttock to calf.</i>

1801
01:22:41,447 --> 01:22:42,879
-<i> Whoa!</i>

1802
01:22:51,055 --> 01:22:54,222
-With Taser, there's no FDA.

1803
01:22:55,225 --> 01:22:56,958
Nobody regulated their product.

1804
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,093
Nobody told them, I mean

1805
01:22:59,095 --> 01:23:01,695
the Consumer Product
Safety Administration

1806
01:23:01,697 --> 01:23:03,163
regulates their product

1807
01:23:03,165 --> 01:23:04,831
just like
they regulate toasters.

1808
01:23:04,833 --> 01:23:08,467
- With the new Taser X2,
more lives will be saved.

1809
01:23:08,469 --> 01:23:10,435
<i>Officers will be safer
on the streets.</i>

1810
01:23:10,437 --> 01:23:12,937
<i>Injury rates
once again will be reduced.</i>

1811
01:23:12,939 --> 01:23:14,605
-<i> It has never been looked at</i>

1812
01:23:14,607 --> 01:23:18,508
by any electrical
standards body in the world.

1813
01:23:18,510 --> 01:23:22,444
<i>And, you know, in a way,</i>
<i>you can't blame</i>
<i>TASER International.</i>

1814
01:23:22,446 --> 01:23:23,645
<i>They're a company.</i>

1815
01:23:23,647 --> 01:23:26,347
They're in the business
to sell a product.

1816
01:23:26,349 --> 01:23:28,449
They're gonna sell it
the best way they can.

1817
01:23:28,451 --> 01:23:29,983
<i>- You know, getting hit
with a Taser is not pleasant</i>

1818
01:23:29,985 --> 01:23:31,751
<i>but an analogy
I use sometimes is</i>

1819
01:23:31,753 --> 01:23:33,085
<i>chemotherapy, right?</i>

1820
01:23:33,087 --> 01:23:35,520
<i>Like, if you've got cancer</i>

1821
01:23:35,522 --> 01:23:37,522
they do awful things to
your body to try and save you.

1822
01:23:37,524 --> 01:23:38,789
Well, our society has a cancer.

1823
01:23:38,791 --> 01:23:41,391
We're a violent,
dangerous society.

1824
01:23:41,393 --> 01:23:43,626
- We believe
in what we are doing.

1825
01:23:43,628 --> 01:23:45,728
We have changed the world.

1826
01:23:45,730 --> 01:23:47,296
Very few people can say that.

1827
01:23:47,298 --> 01:23:49,197
<i>- Look, I've been hit
with this thing 7 times.</i>

1828
01:23:49,199 --> 01:23:50,965
<i>Every senior employee
at this company</i>

1829
01:23:50,967 --> 01:23:52,199
<i>has been hit with a Taser.</i>

1830
01:23:52,201 --> 01:23:54,067
<i>Many of our wives,
many of our children</i>

1831
01:23:54,069 --> 01:23:55,535
<i>have been hit with Tasers.</i>

1832
01:23:55,537 --> 01:23:58,538
<i>So, we believe
this is the safest way</i>

1833
01:23:58,540 --> 01:24:00,373
to get a violent person
under control.

1834
01:24:00,375 --> 01:24:03,008
That's huge.
We're very proud of what we do.

1835
01:24:03,010 --> 01:24:05,543
<i>And it's... it is
like a religion to us.</i>

1836
01:24:19,558 --> 01:24:21,324
-As we sit here today

1837
01:24:21,326 --> 01:24:23,192
there was all this work
'cause we've developed

1838
01:24:23,194 --> 01:24:24,893
a technology that

1839
01:24:24,895 --> 01:24:27,028
if you include
the M26 and the X26

1840
01:24:27,030 --> 01:24:29,930
is deployed by 500,000
police officers

1841
01:24:29,932 --> 01:24:32,198
in over 16,000 agencies.

1842
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:34,434
We've hit over
a million volunteers

1843
01:24:34,436 --> 01:24:36,035
in over a million field uses

1844
01:24:36,037 --> 01:24:39,438
we've prevented,
conservatively, 40 to 50,000

1845
01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:41,306
lethal force incidents

1846
01:24:41,308 --> 01:24:42,840
uh, from occurring.

1847
01:24:42,842 --> 01:24:45,909
And, uh, it's got
an extraordinary safety record.

1848
01:24:45,911 --> 01:24:48,344
So I'm... I'm very proud.

1849
01:24:48,346 --> 01:24:50,245
I think you would be
hard pressed

1850
01:24:50,247 --> 01:24:53,047
to find any other
scientific development

1851
01:24:53,049 --> 01:24:54,515
in the field of modern policing

1852
01:24:54,517 --> 01:24:58,252
that went through a similarly
rigorous approach.

1853
01:24:58,254 --> 01:25:00,554
- If it's that evil
and dangerous

1854
01:25:00,556 --> 01:25:02,856
it wouldn't have lasted 5 years.

1855
01:25:02,858 --> 01:25:04,390
And yet here
we are 18 years later

1856
01:25:04,392 --> 01:25:06,492
after revolutionizing
law enforcement

1857
01:25:06,494 --> 01:25:08,393
as probably the biggest
change in law enforcement

1858
01:25:08,395 --> 01:25:09,427
since the radio.

1859
01:25:09,429 --> 01:25:12,363
It really has changed
law enforcement.

1860
01:25:12,365 --> 01:25:14,098
And a good revolution

1861
01:25:14,100 --> 01:25:15,933
isn't just some
new innovative product.

1862
01:25:15,935 --> 01:25:18,135
A good revolution
comes with pain.

1863
01:25:18,137 --> 01:25:21,338
-<i> And it's success</i>

1864
01:25:21,340 --> 01:25:23,540
<i>uh, gave you a platform
and allowed your company</i>

1865
01:25:23,542 --> 01:25:25,041
<i>to go public, right?</i>

1866
01:25:25,043 --> 01:25:26,108
-That is correct.

1867
01:25:26,110 --> 01:25:28,043
<i>- And made you
a multimillionaire</i>

1868
01:25:28,045 --> 01:25:29,110
<i>in the process, right?</i>

1869
01:25:29,112 --> 01:25:31,145
-I'm not gonna answer that.

1870
01:25:31,147 --> 01:25:33,213
<i>- Well, it... it... it
was financially successful</i>

1871
01:25:33,215 --> 01:25:35,448
<i>for you, right?</i>

1872
01:25:35,450 --> 01:25:37,650
- The company's been
financially successful, yes.

1873
01:25:37,652 --> 01:25:39,985
And if you wanna look
at my records, you can go see
what's public.

1874
01:25:39,987 --> 01:25:42,320
But I'm not gonna sit here
and tell you today.

1875
01:25:44,457 --> 01:25:46,857
- I think that's irrelevant
to your question, but..

1876
01:25:46,859 --> 01:25:49,860
-<i> Okay. Um..</i>

1877
01:25:49,862 --> 01:25:52,062
- 'Cause I would say you're
probably a successful attorney

1878
01:25:52,064 --> 01:25:53,096
sitting there as well.

1879
01:25:53,098 --> 01:25:54,764
-<i> Thank you.</i>

1880
01:26:00,004 --> 01:26:03,438
- <i> Why don't we</i>
<i>go off the record.</i>

1881
01:26:03,440 --> 01:26:06,040
<i>We're approaching
sort of the noon hour.</i>

1882
01:26:06,042 --> 01:26:08,308
-<i> On behalf of the RCMP</i>

1883
01:26:08,310 --> 01:26:10,243
<i>I want to apologize for our role</i>

1884
01:26:10,245 --> 01:26:13,412
in the tragic death of your son,
Robert Dziekanski.

1885
01:26:13,414 --> 01:26:15,914
-<i> A resolute Zofia Cisowski</i>

1886
01:26:15,916 --> 01:26:17,548
<i>accepted the formal apology</i>

1887
01:26:17,550 --> 01:26:19,917
<i>from the top Mountie in BC.</i>

1888
01:26:19,919 --> 01:26:21,585
-<i> We will have to make sure</i>

1889
01:26:21,587 --> 01:26:24,187
that what happened
to my son, Robert

1890
01:26:24,189 --> 01:26:25,855
cannot be repeated.

1891
01:26:29,660 --> 01:26:32,560
<i>- In 2006, TASER International's</i>

1892
01:26:32,562 --> 01:26:34,962
own scientists told them

1893
01:26:34,964 --> 01:26:37,197
that the Taser waveform
can capture the heart.

1894
01:26:37,199 --> 01:26:39,666
<i>They continued
to sell the product</i>

1895
01:26:39,668 --> 01:26:41,768
they did not warn
their customers.

1896
01:26:41,770 --> 01:26:43,402
- I don't dispute
any of the comments

1897
01:26:43,404 --> 01:26:44,903
you've made about, uh

1898
01:26:44,905 --> 01:26:47,538
uh, about potential problems
with CEW

1899
01:26:47,540 --> 01:26:49,706
something that
we're very alive to.

1900
01:26:49,708 --> 01:26:51,941
Uh, it's, uh..

1901
01:26:51,943 --> 01:26:53,709
We wanna see more research.

1902
01:26:53,711 --> 01:26:55,210
And, uh, we welcome it.

1903
01:26:55,212 --> 01:26:57,145
Uh, we'll be involved
in it and, uh..

1904
01:26:57,147 --> 01:26:58,980
- But shouldn't that research
have been done before

1905
01:26:58,982 --> 01:27:01,716
the weapons were even
accepted by the force?

1906
01:27:01,718 --> 01:27:03,884
Because you relied
on the manufacturer's word.

1907
01:27:12,627 --> 01:27:14,660
<i>- You go to the website
and it says that they've saved</i>

1908
01:27:14,662 --> 01:27:18,663
92,990 lives.

1909
01:27:18,665 --> 01:27:20,598
Apparently, it happens every,
I don't know

1910
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:22,600
the next one's gonna be
in 4 minutes.

1911
01:27:22,602 --> 01:27:25,002
<i>I... I... I just think that
we would've noticed that.</i>

1912
01:27:25,004 --> 01:27:26,503
<i>You know, I think
we would've noticed.</i>

1913
01:27:26,505 --> 01:27:30,340
<i>Uh, 92,000 fewer,
uh, fatal injuries</i>

1914
01:27:30,342 --> 01:27:32,675
<i>involving police
or... or their subjects.</i>

1915
01:27:34,378 --> 01:27:36,811
-<i> I don't know</i>
<i>if other departments</i>
<i>have experienced, uh</i>

1916
01:27:36,813 --> 01:27:40,114
<i>maybe some of them haven't
experienced a Taser death.</i>

1917
01:27:40,116 --> 01:27:42,616
But you know what?
I was a cop before Tasers.

1918
01:27:42,618 --> 01:27:44,618
And I did it just fine.

1919
01:27:45,787 --> 01:27:47,553
-<i> Since we've made a decision</i>

1920
01:27:47,555 --> 01:27:49,755
<i>to take the Tasers
uh, off the street</i>

1921
01:27:49,757 --> 01:27:53,325
we haven't seen a rise
in, in officer injury or..

1922
01:27:53,327 --> 01:27:56,261
We actually, haven't even seen
any difference.

1923
01:27:56,263 --> 01:27:58,196
I mean, it was well-publicized

1924
01:27:58,198 --> 01:27:59,997
that we took them off the street

1925
01:27:59,999 --> 01:28:01,131
and I haven't seen
any difference

1926
01:28:01,133 --> 01:28:02,632
from the bad guys either.

1927
01:28:02,634 --> 01:28:04,433
So everything's
pretty status quo.

1928
01:28:04,435 --> 01:28:06,001
I don't wanna say that

1929
01:28:06,003 --> 01:28:08,503
that I'm not gonna
offer the best

1930
01:28:08,505 --> 01:28:10,638
uh, line of defense
for my officers.

1931
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:12,940
But they have...
they have Tiger Lights

1932
01:28:12,942 --> 01:28:14,374
they have OC spray

1933
01:28:14,376 --> 01:28:16,209
they have guns,
they wear bulletproof vests

1934
01:28:16,211 --> 01:28:18,578
they have rifles
in the back of their car.

1935
01:28:18,580 --> 01:28:20,112
We have tanks.

1936
01:28:20,114 --> 01:28:22,681
So, for me getting rid
of the Ta... the Tasers

1937
01:28:22,683 --> 01:28:24,349
to me it was a no-brainer.

1938
01:28:25,919 --> 01:28:27,351
<i>- Darryl Turner, I mean,
you look at that</i>

1939
01:28:27,353 --> 01:28:28,785
<i>kid getting shot in the chest</i>

1940
01:28:28,787 --> 01:28:30,119
<i>and then the company senior
they are saying that</i>

1941
01:28:30,121 --> 01:28:31,453
<i>that didn't kill him.</i>

1942
01:28:31,455 --> 01:28:32,854
-I mean, what the fuck?

1943
01:28:32,856 --> 01:28:34,655
You know?

1944
01:28:34,657 --> 01:28:36,423
Shouldn't we have
some control on these weapons?

1945
01:28:36,425 --> 01:28:39,058
There's no control,
there's no government agency

1946
01:28:39,060 --> 01:28:41,660
you know, the training
comes from the manufacturer

1947
01:28:41,662 --> 01:28:44,462
who has an interest
in encouraging use.

1948
01:28:44,464 --> 01:28:45,729
Shoot a bunch
of fucking electricity

1949
01:28:45,731 --> 01:28:47,831
in somebody's chest
and they drop dead.

1950
01:28:47,833 --> 01:28:49,899
We're giving cops these things,
and they're running around

1951
01:28:49,901 --> 01:28:51,400
shooting people for

1952
01:28:51,402 --> 01:28:54,403
not signing parking tickets
fast enough or something.

1953
01:29:13,089 --> 01:29:15,489
<i>- Most people celebrate holidays</i>

1954
01:29:15,491 --> 01:29:16,590
<i>especially Labor Day</i>

1955
01:29:16,592 --> 01:29:18,191
<i>and we... we buried</i>

1956
01:29:18,193 --> 01:29:20,426
<i>Stanley on Labor Day
five years ago.</i>

1957
01:29:20,428 --> 01:29:23,262
<i>So Labor Day weekend is not</i>

1958
01:29:23,264 --> 01:29:25,831
<i>really a good weekend for us.</i>

1959
01:29:25,833 --> 01:29:28,466
-<i> It's nice to have, uh</i>

1960
01:29:28,468 --> 01:29:30,501
<i>Stanley's friends all come out.</i>

1961
01:29:30,503 --> 01:29:32,002
<i>Just, if nothing else, they eat</i>

1962
01:29:32,004 --> 01:29:35,538
<i>eat a good meal and talk
a little bit about Stan.</i>

1963
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:19,446
-<i> Well, first and foremost</i>

1964
01:30:19,448 --> 01:30:21,247
someone losing a life is tragic.

1965
01:30:21,249 --> 01:30:24,216
I lost my father.
That is a painful experience.

1966
01:30:24,218 --> 01:30:26,751
I felt that for years,
and still feel it.
That was in 2005.

1967
01:30:26,753 --> 01:30:30,287
So I can't pretend
to be in the parents'

1968
01:30:30,289 --> 01:30:31,788
or the family's shoes

1969
01:30:31,790 --> 01:30:34,056
when there's been an in-custody
death. That's horrible.

1970
01:30:34,058 --> 01:30:35,557
So I wouldn't pretend
to say I know

1971
01:30:35,559 --> 01:30:36,791
what they're going through.

1972
01:30:36,793 --> 01:30:38,993
But I know the grieving process,
it's brutal.

1973
01:30:38,995 --> 01:30:41,595
Um, but I would also

1974
01:30:41,597 --> 01:30:42,929
try and take the perspective

1975
01:30:42,931 --> 01:30:45,164
of the lives that we've saved

1976
01:30:45,166 --> 01:30:48,567
from someone having to
not use a baton strike.

1977
01:30:48,569 --> 01:30:51,870
Strike somebody,
beat them into submission.

1978
01:30:51,872 --> 01:30:53,338
<i>We do sleep well at night</i>

1979
01:30:53,340 --> 01:30:55,606
<i>because we know
we're on the right path.</i>

1980
01:30:55,608 --> 01:30:57,808
<i>Really, the future's
looking bright for TASER.</i>

1981
01:30:57,810 --> 01:31:00,443
<i>Uh, so the controversies,
as painful as they are</i>

1982
01:31:00,445 --> 01:31:01,644
<i>they make you grow.</i>

1983
01:31:01,646 --> 01:31:02,845
<i>They make you respond</i>

1984
01:31:02,847 --> 01:31:05,280
<i>in terms of innovation.</i>

1985
01:31:05,282 --> 01:31:07,882
So, TASER's saving lives

1986
01:31:07,884 --> 01:31:09,416
that's the business
that we're in.

1987
01:31:09,418 --> 01:31:12,017
We're protecting the truth
and we're protecting lives.

1988
01:31:14,287 --> 01:31:15,986
-<i> Anything else you wanna add?</i>

1989
01:31:18,457 --> 01:31:19,956
-Good interview.