1 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,100 I feel like... something bad is gonna happen to me. 2 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,370 I feel like something bad has happened. 3 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,210 It hasn't reached me yet, but it's on its way. 4 00:00:51,110 --> 00:00:52,170 I don't know why it's important. 5 00:00:52,170 --> 00:00:55,810 It's like how it helps people, like, dealing with her loss, 6 00:00:55,810 --> 00:00:59,230 like making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 7 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:13,080 Alice kept secrets. 8 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,620 She... kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 9 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,470 It's hard for some people to understand, but you have to believe you're to blame 10 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,430 or else there's nothing to hold on to. 11 00:02:08,790 --> 00:02:09,840 Police and emergency service. 12 00:02:09,850 --> 00:02:13,000 My daughter, Alice, has gone missing. We need some... 13 00:02:13,260 --> 00:02:15,890 - How long ago did you last... - She was in the dam... 14 00:02:15,890 --> 00:02:17,130 looked everywhere. 15 00:02:20,700 --> 00:02:24,030 - Do you know where you are? - We're on the other side of the dam. 16 00:02:24,030 --> 00:02:26,830 - She's been missing for quite a few... - Okay. 17 00:02:26,830 --> 00:02:30,530 - Please send someone now. - I need you to talk to me for a second. 18 00:02:30,530 --> 00:02:34,560 - We don't know where she is. - Hello, June, can you hear me? 19 00:02:45,020 --> 00:02:48,890 The normally tranquil setting of Ararat's Norval Dam was shattered yesterday... 20 00:02:48,890 --> 00:02:51,480 with the disappearance of 16-year-old Alice Palmer... 21 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,190 while picnicking with her family. 22 00:02:53,190 --> 00:02:57,420 We received a call around 6:00 pm. tonight of a missing girl, 23 00:02:57,700 --> 00:02:59,530 and on discovering the nature of the situation... 24 00:02:59,530 --> 00:03:02,190 we called in the search-and-rescue divers from Melbourne. 25 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,760 Police divers entered the water around 10 o'clock with SES volunteers... 26 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,240 joining a fruitless search... 27 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,860 Matt and Ali had swum out to the middle of the dam. 28 00:03:11,350 --> 00:03:15,680 I could see them from where I was sitting at the picnic area. 29 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,980 I think we'd been in the water for about 15 minutes, 30 00:03:17,980 --> 00:03:21,700 and I said that I was gonna get out. It was cold. 31 00:03:22,890 --> 00:03:25,990 So, I started swimming back and she didn't come out with me, 32 00:03:25,990 --> 00:03:28,440 so I thought she's gonna stay in there. 33 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:31,940 I remember Matty got out, 34 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:38,510 and a few minutes later, I heard him ask where was Alice. 35 00:03:42,180 --> 00:03:46,840 So, I stood up and looked out across the dam, 36 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,360 and the water was completely still. 37 00:03:51,950 --> 00:03:53,790 So I called out. 38 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:59,440 I looked out over the water to see if I could see her. 39 00:04:02,130 --> 00:04:05,460 And both the boys had kind of checked, 40 00:04:05,460 --> 00:04:09,480 you know, the bush land behind. 41 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,780 I could see Alice's towel, she'd left it on the ground, 42 00:04:15,180 --> 00:04:17,540 and she clearly hadn't got out of the water... 43 00:04:17,540 --> 00:04:21,850 because then, you know, she would have picked up her towel, so.. . 44 00:04:23,150 --> 00:04:26,960 Yeah, that was the last time that I saw her. 45 00:04:48,010 --> 00:04:51,700 Police continue to hold grave fears for 16-year-old Alice Palmer 46 00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:54,190 who disappeared while picnicking with her family. 47 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:55,840 Police search-and-rescue divers... 48 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:58,100 We were told to go home, 49 00:05:00,220 --> 00:05:03,550 and if the search-and-rescue divers found anything 50 00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:05,930 then they'd let us know immediately. 51 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:20,400 It felt very strange in the car on the way home 52 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,120 because there was one empty seat. 53 00:05:23,370 --> 00:05:28,490 One minute she was there and then gone. 54 00:05:31,150 --> 00:05:33,940 I went back to stay with the Palmers that night. 55 00:05:33,950 --> 00:05:37,720 We were just mostly waiting, mostly waiting for news. 56 00:05:40,290 --> 00:05:43,770 For bad news. There was that expectation. 57 00:05:44,490 --> 00:05:49,200 We got a call from Russell on his mobile about 9:00 at night. 58 00:05:49,630 --> 00:05:54,070 And he said there'd been an accident at the weir, 59 00:05:54,070 --> 00:05:56,730 and Alice had gone missing. 60 00:05:56,730 --> 00:06:00,820 So, we thought that we better go to Ararat. 61 00:06:01,340 --> 00:06:06,640 I remember June was a bit funny about seeing Iris, 62 00:06:06,650 --> 00:06:10,080 there was a strange feeling between them. 63 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,460 It felt a little strange having my mother there. 64 00:06:15,420 --> 00:06:17,770 Mum and I, there for Alice, 65 00:06:19,260 --> 00:06:22,600 just didn't feel like the right order of things. 66 00:06:24,730 --> 00:06:27,180 It was an awful, awful night. 67 00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:30,180 Worst night of our lives. 68 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,340 I went into Alice's room later that night 69 00:06:37,340 --> 00:06:44,260 and her phone went off a couple of times, but I didn't answer it. 70 00:06:50,460 --> 00:06:53,110 I remember, the bed was made. 71 00:06:54,130 --> 00:06:57,440 I remember thinking how neat everything looked. 72 00:07:11,410 --> 00:07:14,870 I got a call from Alice's mum, June. 73 00:07:14,870 --> 00:07:21,140 She'd said that Alice is missing and presumed, like, she drowned 74 00:07:22,850 --> 00:07:24,620 and I didn't not believe her, 75 00:07:24,620 --> 00:07:28,990 but, I don't know, it was kind of hard to take, 76 00:07:28,990 --> 00:07:32,860 so I actually called Alice's mobile. 77 00:07:32,860 --> 00:07:34,440 I just.. . 78 00:07:36,670 --> 00:07:37,960 Maybe wanted to see if.. . 79 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,620 Hope it was a joke or something, I don't know. 80 00:07:40,940 --> 00:07:44,020 It was just a real shock. 81 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:48,620 Just didn't really feel like it was real. 82 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:55,690 Everything was the same as always, but people were saying Alice had drowned. 83 00:07:55,790 --> 00:07:59,870 Are there any memories from that night that stand out for you? 84 00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:04,270 I remember we had the porch light on. 85 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,850 Still do, actually, just in case. 86 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:10,740 And why is that? 87 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:22,350 Just in case she comes home, I guess. 88 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:46,780 All right, get in. 89 00:08:50,270 --> 00:08:55,330 The SES divers located Alice's body at approximately 9/25 p. m . 90 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:59,370 They used sonar to locate her. And she'd drifted some way 91 00:08:59,370 --> 00:09:04,030 and come to rest on a shelf at the bottom of the storm water system in the dam. 92 00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:07,840 Obviously contacted the family immediately. 93 00:09:08,990 --> 00:09:11,920 As soon as we were told that they'd found the body, 94 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,320 June and I went down to the dam. 95 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Georgie'd come over to keep Matt company. 96 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:20,620 It was all very official and formal, and they asked me to sign a statement 97 00:09:20,620 --> 00:09:22,290 of identification. 98 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:24,480 June stayed in the car. 99 00:09:26,210 --> 00:09:28,330 And, you know, on reflection, I think that was a mistake 100 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:30,920 because she didn't have any closure. 101 00:09:33,010 --> 00:09:37,360 I just couldn't bring myself to identify Alice's body. 102 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,580 She'd been underwater all that time and it... 103 00:09:42,580 --> 00:09:44,900 I guess it's not how I.. . 104 00:09:45,620 --> 00:09:48,810 I didn't want to remember her in that way. 105 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:55,310 I thought that was my responsibility as Ali's dad, you know. 106 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,840 That's what a father does. 107 00:10:19,390 --> 00:10:22,380 The car stalled on the way back from the dam. 108 00:10:22,380 --> 00:10:25,620 But the only gear I could get it into was reverse. 109 00:10:25,620 --> 00:10:29,350 So, we drove back into town in reverse. 110 00:10:30,330 --> 00:10:35,130 Which was either that or walk. And given everything that had happened, 111 00:10:35,140 --> 00:10:37,860 seemed like the better option, really. 112 00:10:49,090 --> 00:10:52,700 The autopsy was performed on the Monday, the 27th. 113 00:10:54,920 --> 00:11:00,700 Then the coroner released the body on Tuesday, the 28th. 114 00:11:03,770 --> 00:11:08,510 It was very strange spending Christmas Day with the family up there 115 00:11:09,070 --> 00:11:11,850 while Alice lay alone in the morgue. 116 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,480 I don't know, it was just like I hadn't seen her for a week or anything, like.. . 117 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,830 Yeah, it didn't feel real. 118 00:11:33,830 --> 00:11:36,690 Death takes everything eventually. 119 00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:39,430 It's the meanest, dumbest machine there is, and it just keeps coming... 120 00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:41,510 and it doesn't care. 121 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,850 There's nothing else to know about it, really. 122 00:11:49,210 --> 00:11:52,840 It was a somber day for the family and friends of Alice Palmer 123 00:11:52,850 --> 00:11:57,160 who gathered to pay their final respects to a young woman taken too soon. 124 00:11:57,220 --> 00:12:01,330 She was a great person. Very popular, clever, lovely. 125 00:12:02,190 --> 00:12:04,070 She was.. . I don't.. . Yeah. 126 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,320 Alice is remembered as a happy, fun-loving girl with a zest for life. 127 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,260 Described as always putting others... 128 00:12:10,260 --> 00:12:13,670 The Palmers were really doing it tough at that time. 129 00:12:14,970 --> 00:12:18,660 And when I think of how bad it was back then, 130 00:12:18,660 --> 00:12:22,250 it's hard to imagine how much worse they would get. 131 00:12:35,220 --> 00:12:39,480 Ten days after Ali's funeral, so that makes it the 15th of January, 132 00:12:39,490 --> 00:12:44,070 stuff started happening around the house. Noises in the roof, 133 00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:49,530 and sounds coming from outside the window 134 00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:54,290 and other movements that seemed to come from Ali's old room. 135 00:12:55,770 --> 00:13:00,300 So, we re-hung the door to Ali's room, 136 00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:04,310 and we got a pest controller to come in and check for termites. 137 00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:06,680 But it didn't help at all, 138 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:11,530 the door kept slamming and we still kept getting the noises from her room. 139 00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:16,150 There was just something weird about that house. 140 00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:19,090 It had a really strange feeling about it. 141 00:13:19,090 --> 00:13:22,890 I really can't explain to you what it was exactly, 142 00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:28,080 but you'd go in there and just have this bad feeling, like, in your gut. 143 00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:40,540 I started having these nightmares, 144 00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:44,310 and they were so distressing 145 00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:49,400 that sometimes I just wouldn't want to open my eyes. 146 00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:52,510 I'd woken up, but I didn't want to open my eyes. 147 00:13:54,530 --> 00:13:59,400 There was one particular one, it was quite vivid and recurring. 148 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,230 Alice would come down the hall still dripping from the dam 149 00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:09,020 and just stand at the foot of our bed, just staring at us. 150 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:15,390 It was quite terrifying, as I said, I didn't want to open my eyes. 151 00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:22,680 By early February my nightmares were getting so bad 152 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:28,630 that I began to go for walks at night, sometimes for hours at a time, 153 00:14:28,630 --> 00:14:31,250 just so that I didn't have to go to bed at night 154 00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:34,020 and close my eyes and go to sleep. 155 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:40,780 Sometimes I would actually go into people's houses. 156 00:14:41,310 --> 00:14:44,790 I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. 157 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:50,350 I guess I really just wanted to be inside someone else's life for a while. 158 00:15:01,630 --> 00:15:04,690 Georgie, do you remember how Russell was doing at that time? 159 00:15:04,690 --> 00:15:09,460 Yeah, Russell was.. . He was working a lot at that point. 160 00:15:09,460 --> 00:15:12,980 I think that might have helped him with his grief. 161 00:15:13,370 --> 00:15:15,490 Send it through without any explanation. 162 00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:20,140 Russell and I met actually on the Gippsland Catchment project in '98 163 00:15:20,140 --> 00:15:22,270 and worked together on that. 164 00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:24,080 So, you guys have known each other for a few years? 165 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,520 Yeah, a good few years, yeah. 166 00:15:28,650 --> 00:15:32,850 Do you remember how he was affected after Alice's death? What changed? 167 00:15:32,850 --> 00:15:37,360 It was work as normal, and that was troubling actually. 168 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,940 I didn't really know what to say to him about that. 169 00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:43,460 You never spoke about it? 170 00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:46,520 Not really. Everyone grieves in their own way. 171 00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:51,410 And it wasn't really my place to be telling him how to feel. 172 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,290 But I certainly... I certainly was concerned. 173 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,500 I was really grateful that I had my work. 174 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,010 And, I mean, I felt really guilty about that at the time. 175 00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:07,430 But, you know, I just wanted to get on with it. 176 00:16:11,690 --> 00:16:15,490 Then one night, in late February, 177 00:16:15,490 --> 00:16:19,250 I came home from work, and I was sitting in the kitchen 178 00:16:19,570 --> 00:16:22,650 and I heard a noise coming from Ali's room. 179 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,440 So, I went into Ali's room, and I don't really know why, 180 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,750 but I sort of found myself sitting down in the chair in front of the dresser. 181 00:16:35,850 --> 00:16:38,340 And before I could kind of work out what I was doing there, 182 00:16:38,340 --> 00:16:41,880 Ali walked in and she went over to her desk 183 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,790 and started sharpening a pencil, 184 00:16:43,790 --> 00:16:49,810 and then she looked like she was checking for a text message on her phone. 185 00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:54,320 And, you know, I was completely freaked out. 186 00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:59,090 She was completely oblivious to my presence. 187 00:17:00,810 --> 00:17:04,470 And then I don't know what happened, I must have moved the bed 188 00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:06,910 or, you know, squeaked my shoes or something, 189 00:17:06,910 --> 00:17:09,430 but she went completely rigid. 190 00:17:10,420 --> 00:17:15,100 And I knew then that she knew I was there. 191 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,480 And she slowly turned around and she looked me right in the eye fully for, 192 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,650 you know, what felt like forever. 193 00:17:24,660 --> 00:17:30,400 And then she just came at me and stood up and said, "Get out! Get out!" 194 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,750 And I just got up and went out as fast as I could. 195 00:17:36,110 --> 00:17:37,870 I could hear Russell crying. 196 00:17:37,870 --> 00:17:41,380 And he was here in the kitchen, Mathew and I both found him in here, 197 00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:43,610 and he was sobbing. 198 00:17:43,610 --> 00:17:46,030 He was absolutely inconsolable. 199 00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:49,810 Do you believe Russell when he says he saw a ghost? 200 00:17:49,810 --> 00:17:53,650 Yeah, I do. I believe he saw what he saw. 201 00:17:53,650 --> 00:17:58,640 And he wouldn't... He's not the kinda man to make something up. 202 00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:01,580 So, I believe he saw something. 203 00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:06,780 Whether it's a real ghost or not, I don't really know. 204 00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:09,590 But I'm sure he saw something. 205 00:18:27,390 --> 00:18:31,420 I remember trying to talk to members of the church 206 00:18:31,420 --> 00:18:35,180 about how to help June and how to help the Palmers. 207 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:40,350 But there just didn't seem like there was anything we could do. 208 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:44,840 I think part of the reason was because they weren't churchgoers. 209 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,150 So, didn't know how to offer them comfort. 210 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:54,160 I don't even know what June believes in. 211 00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:58,370 I found myself mostly concerned about Mathew. 212 00:18:59,620 --> 00:19:02,780 I guess because those two were always so close, 213 00:19:02,780 --> 00:19:05,440 I was worried how he would cope. 214 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,750 I remember he was spending a lot more time alone. 215 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:21,020 We were all worried about him. 216 00:19:24,350 --> 00:19:28,750 Mathew came in with some unusual bruises on his body. 217 00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:32,760 They were unusual in terms of their distribution and depth. 218 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,790 We obviously took a history, trying to exclude trauma, 219 00:19:37,790 --> 00:19:42,060 but there was certainly no history of trauma that he was able to give us. 220 00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:43,960 We tested him for vasculitis, 221 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,150 and we also excluded any poisoning or toxins in his system. 222 00:19:48,670 --> 00:19:51,470 We were unable to turn up anything conclusive. 223 00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:57,520 And several weeks after this, the bruises just resolved spontaneously. 224 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,820 And we were never able to really establish a cause for them. 225 00:20:04,450 --> 00:20:07,860 My name's Steve Wilkie. I'm Mathew's best friend. 226 00:20:08,220 --> 00:20:11,930 I usually stay at Mathew's house two or three times a week. 227 00:20:14,990 --> 00:20:21,080 We started a band together, so, we normally play music at my house. 228 00:20:22,170 --> 00:20:26,540 Mathew seems a bit quieter, but he was always pretty quiet, 229 00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:31,190 so, I guess there wasn't really any warning bells going off or anything. 230 00:20:31,780 --> 00:20:35,010 Well, I had heard about June going into people's houses. 231 00:20:35,010 --> 00:20:37,910 And Mathew never really seemed to want to talk about any of that. 232 00:20:37,910 --> 00:20:40,670 I never asked him about any of it. 233 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,110 I know that he was always interested in photography. 234 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:50,720 And he was... 235 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,710 At this time, he was starting to pursue it with more passion. 236 00:20:59,070 --> 00:21:03,630 Mathew came to me, he was very keen to find out anything about photography. 237 00:21:03,630 --> 00:21:07,700 So, I was more than willing to help out, that's what I do. 238 00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:11,410 So, he was picking my brains about just about anything to do with it, 239 00:21:11,410 --> 00:21:15,100 from equipment, down to techniques, down to lighting, you know. 240 00:21:15,890 --> 00:21:19,660 But he was a great asset, so, I mean, eventually I employed him. 241 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,010 Mathew, can you talk to me about the photographs 242 00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:51,170 of the backyard that you've been taking? 243 00:21:52,350 --> 00:21:55,800 Yeah, basically I've taken that same photo 244 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,190 with that composition for, I think, every 4 months for the past 4 years. 245 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,850 And it's just a photograph of the backyard. 246 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:06,580 Looking out, you can see the hills in the distance. 247 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:08,280 It's just like a little project 248 00:22:09,070 --> 00:22:11,180 that I set up for myself when we got here. 249 00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:16,190 And what was in the April 28th photograph that was different? 250 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:22,120 Well, it's basically the same shot, 251 00:22:23,620 --> 00:22:28,670 but it would appear that Alice is standing against the fence. 252 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,560 Do you remember what the reaction in the house was at the time? 253 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,410 I wouldn't say the mood was good, but it was better than before. 254 00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:51,670 It was like.. . Like it gave us sort of something to focus on, I think. 255 00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:53,050 All of us. 256 00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:59,310 The photographs were taken on the 3rd of April, 257 00:22:59,310 --> 00:23:05,400 and they were developed on the 4th, and I looked at them, I think on the 5th. 258 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,060 And looked at the dams and the water levels and I was quite happy. 259 00:23:10,060 --> 00:23:13,960 But it was only the following night that it was pointed out to me by my wife 260 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,360 that there was something in the background 261 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:18,080 in Norval Dam, this image came up. 262 00:23:31,820 --> 00:23:36,080 When I first looked at the photograph, I didn't know what to make of it. 263 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:42,340 The image was quite unsettling because it certainly looked like Alice. 264 00:23:43,690 --> 00:23:47,070 It was an incredibly discomforting image. 265 00:23:51,740 --> 00:23:55,180 And I became convinced that Alice was still alive. 266 00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:07,020 I didn't have any rational explanation for who was in those photos. 267 00:24:08,180 --> 00:24:12,520 But I did know something about Alice that June didn't. 268 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,640 I'd seen Alice's body. I didn't think she was alive. 269 00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:21,110 I knew she wasn't. 270 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,980 I became convinced that Russell had made a mistake. 271 00:24:26,130 --> 00:24:29,950 He himself said that it didn't look like anybody anymore. 272 00:24:32,370 --> 00:24:34,310 June was so convinced that I'd made a mistake 273 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:37,240 that I actually started to have doubts myself. 274 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,910 I started to think maybe I'd made my mind up 275 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:45,640 that it was Alice's body before I'd looked, 276 00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:49,920 and that the circumstances were so compelling for me, 277 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,840 that I'd decided that it was her. 278 00:24:56,230 --> 00:25:00,750 More than three months after the funeral of Ararat teenager Alice Palmer, 279 00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:03,060 her grieving parents formally requested 280 00:25:03,070 --> 00:25:05,820 her body be exhumed from the general cemetery. 281 00:25:05,910 --> 00:25:08,470 There has been some contention from the Palmer family 282 00:25:08,470 --> 00:25:12,070 about the accuracy of the original body identification. 283 00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:16,800 June and Russell Palmer were adamant that DNA testing be carried out. 284 00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:20,190 They just couldn't be sure that the body they identified was indeed Alice. 285 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,550 And today, almost... 286 00:25:21,550 --> 00:25:26,180 Alice's body was exhumed in the presence of the funeral director, Dr. Slatter, 287 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:29,490 and there was a representative from the coroner's office also. 288 00:25:29,490 --> 00:25:32,290 And it was then transported to Ararat Base Hospital 289 00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:34,920 where they took the DNA samples. 290 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,410 And she stayed there until the results came back. 291 00:25:42,210 --> 00:25:48,120 A few days later we received a copy of the coroner's preliminary report, 292 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:54,160 and Alice's identity was confirmed by the DNA sample match. 293 00:25:56,390 --> 00:26:00,620 It was only after they'd confirmed that it was Alice's body 294 00:26:00,620 --> 00:26:06,070 that I realized how much that I'd invested in the possibility of it not being her. 295 00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:11,360 You know, I can't tell you how much I wanted there to have been 296 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:14,920 a terrible mistake, even if it had been mine. 297 00:26:16,410 --> 00:26:20,530 Really, really wanted there to have been somebody else's kid in that dam. 298 00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:23,130 A runaway, a murder victim. 299 00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:26,870 Just anybody else's, just as long as it wasn't my kid. 300 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,530 Just as long as it wasn't Alice. 301 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,450 Yes, it is. 302 00:26:51,340 --> 00:26:52,850 Stop it. 303 00:27:02,220 --> 00:27:03,960 Oh, my God. 304 00:27:12,860 --> 00:27:16,550 Alice was reburied two days later, on the 7th of June. 305 00:27:18,730 --> 00:27:23,980 But the question remained, who or what was in those photos? 306 00:27:45,890 --> 00:27:49,190 Well, I continued to hear things, and.. . 307 00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:52,200 - What did you hear? - I was hearing noises. Sort of.. . 308 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,360 They didn't really relent. I kept hearing noises in the hallway. 309 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:58,270 So, I thought, "Well, I'll just set up a camera 310 00:27:58,270 --> 00:28:02,520 "to see if I see anything, see something". 311 00:28:27,060 --> 00:28:33,880 The first night I looked back and there was footage of a figure 312 00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:40,890 moving from the lounge room across the hallway to the front door. 313 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,550 You're on Voice FM, 8/02. 314 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,530 I'm Helen Bath and we're taking calls with psychic consultant, Ray Kemeney. 315 00:29:00,530 --> 00:29:02,590 Next we have Nadia on the line, Ray. 316 00:29:02,590 --> 00:29:05,830 Hi, Nadia, how are you? What can I do for you? 317 00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:09,000 My question is about career, and I've also got a question about family. 318 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,570 It was around about that time I decided to seek out the advice of Ray Kemeney. 319 00:29:14,570 --> 00:29:18,080 I had heard Ray on the radio over the years, 320 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,710 and opinion was quite divided, some thought he was the real deal, 321 00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:24,680 others were unconvinced. 322 00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:28,560 - Next we have Annie on the line. - Hi, Annie, how are you? 323 00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:31,220 I'm fine, thanks, Ray. Thank you for taking my call. 324 00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:34,030 My pleasure. What can I do for you? 325 00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:37,510 I just wanted a general reading. 326 00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:40,680 General not just medical. 327 00:29:41,070 --> 00:29:42,930 I'm Hungarian by birth. 328 00:29:42,930 --> 00:29:45,280 My parents came out here when I was quite young. 329 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,040 I've got a 15-year-old daughter who lives with her mother in South Australia. 330 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,410 My Christian name is actually Schultz, but I changed it to Ray. 331 00:29:54,410 --> 00:29:58,000 I think it's a more trustworthy name for a psychic. 332 00:29:59,850 --> 00:30:02,540 Australia's wog psychic of choice. 333 00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:07,020 Most of what I do is... 334 00:30:07,020 --> 00:30:10,290 When I'm dealing with the sick or the dying, 335 00:30:10,290 --> 00:30:13,450 which I guess probably fits about a third of my clients, 336 00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:17,600 is to allow them the possibility that death is not the bitter end, 337 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,730 that it's not the full stop. 338 00:30:21,730 --> 00:30:23,770 Which is a consolation that I'm quite happy to give them 339 00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:28,690 considering the fact that what happens after death is up for grabs anyway. 340 00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:34,430 There's somebody very close to you, someone you haven't seen for a while, 341 00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:38,650 someone who is going to come back into your life. 342 00:30:38,650 --> 00:30:41,600 Someone who'll be of great comfort to you. 343 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,790 Anyone that fits that bill? 344 00:30:45,790 --> 00:30:48,030 Yeah, I can think of someone. 345 00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:50,790 Look, I won't lie to you, Annie, I can see obstacles ahead of you... 346 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,890 but I think that this person who is coming back to you... 347 00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:58,390 is gonna make a great difference and will be of great solace to you. 348 00:30:59,710 --> 00:31:01,360 Thanks, Ray. 349 00:31:02,250 --> 00:31:04,020 See you, Annie. 350 00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:21,890 Where I come from, when someone dies, 351 00:31:21,890 --> 00:31:23,890 they block out all the mirrors in the house... 352 00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:27,410 to stop the... the dead from finding their way back. 353 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,120 It's things like that, that make a difference. 354 00:31:39,020 --> 00:31:40,990 Hi, Annie. I'm Ray. 355 00:31:53,060 --> 00:31:55,140 You're gonna die, Annie. 356 00:31:56,530 --> 00:31:59,770 It's just the start of something else, all right? 357 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:03,920 - Thank you. - It's all right. 358 00:32:04,810 --> 00:32:06,150 Okay. 359 00:32:10,210 --> 00:32:13,440 I liked Ray immediately, but he wasn't what I expected. 360 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,380 I don't know what I really did expect, but there was nothing kinda spooky... 361 00:32:18,380 --> 00:32:20,130 or fake about him. 362 00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:33,210 Okay. Are we ready? 363 00:32:36,540 --> 00:32:37,940 I want you to close your eyes.. . 364 00:32:37,940 --> 00:32:40,270 I usually video tape my sessions... 365 00:32:40,270 --> 00:32:43,710 so that they can be reviewed later by the clients, 366 00:32:43,710 --> 00:32:48,020 especially when there's elements of trance or hypnotism involved. 367 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,420 I keep one copy for myself, one copy for them. 368 00:32:51,420 --> 00:32:53,260 Better to be safe than sorry. 369 00:32:53,690 --> 00:32:56,840 Okay, so you're standing outside your house. 370 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,370 Tell me what you see. 371 00:33:04,030 --> 00:33:05,610 My house. 372 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:10,830 It's a white house. I'm walking towards the front door. 373 00:33:10,830 --> 00:33:11,960 Okay. 374 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,100 Now, I want you to go inside the house. 375 00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:17,230 I want you to move slowly through the house, 376 00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:19,960 I want you to describe what you see, 377 00:33:21,850 --> 00:33:24,930 where you are, just give me a guided tour. 378 00:33:36,830 --> 00:33:40,820 Okay, I'm walking down the hallway... 379 00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:42,980 towards Alice's room. 380 00:33:48,140 --> 00:33:49,610 What's there? 381 00:33:49,610 --> 00:33:53,590 I can see Alice's shoes outside her room. 382 00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:59,190 And what does that mean for you? June? 383 00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:06,310 She always used to leave her sneakers outside her room. 384 00:34:08,930 --> 00:34:12,190 So, I want you to go inside her room now, 385 00:34:12,190 --> 00:34:14,880 open the door and just move inside. 386 00:34:15,570 --> 00:34:19,840 You feel safe enough to go into Alice's room? 387 00:34:21,870 --> 00:34:24,550 - Okay. - Now open the door. 388 00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:30,820 I'm going inside her room. 389 00:34:45,130 --> 00:34:47,810 You can see something, can't you? 390 00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:51,070 Tell me what you see, June. 391 00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:54,180 She's.. . 392 00:34:56,140 --> 00:35:00,820 Alice is sitting in the wicker chair at the end of her bed. 393 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,620 She looks sad. 394 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,960 I first met Ray when June brought him home for dinner... 395 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,840 the night of her first consultation. 396 00:35:23,860 --> 00:35:25,850 And, yeah, I'm completely indifferent to psychics, 397 00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:28,730 I don't really have a position on them at all. 398 00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:31,900 I don't really want them to come round for dinner, mind you, 399 00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:34,350 but, you know, I didn't want to upset June either. 400 00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:39,130 He was a pleasant sort of a bloke, he wasn't ooky-spooky at all. 401 00:35:39,130 --> 00:35:41,690 And I was on my best behavior. 402 00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:45,380 A few days later, maybe a week later, 403 00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:49,320 I suggested to the family that we hold a séance. 404 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,970 June was really keen, but I remember Russell just flat out refused. 405 00:35:54,730 --> 00:35:57,260 I think Mathew finally talked his dad around. 406 00:35:57,260 --> 00:36:01,310 Mathew, how did you feel about having a séance held in your house? 407 00:36:03,370 --> 00:36:08,670 At the time I was actually kind of interested, sort of curious. 408 00:36:08,670 --> 00:36:12,720 I don't think Dad was thrilled about the idea. 409 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,700 But, yeah, I thought it would be interesting. 410 00:36:18,050 --> 00:36:20,410 And I suggested we film it, 411 00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:23,850 and I recorded it with just our video camera, 412 00:36:23,850 --> 00:36:25,660 which is the PC9. 413 00:36:29,130 --> 00:36:32,210 I'm getting a strong presence in the room. 414 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,640 In the house. 415 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,970 I think we all thought that the séance was a failure. 416 00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:45,970 Ray didn't really come up with anything, like, with any signs or anything, 417 00:36:45,970 --> 00:36:50,100 so, after about an hour or so, we called it quits, 418 00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:52,410 and it wasn't until the next day... 419 00:36:52,410 --> 00:36:57,420 that Mathew was reviewing the footage... 420 00:36:57,420 --> 00:37:00,370 that there was an image of Alice. 421 00:37:00,990 --> 00:37:03,540 Make your presence known to us. 422 00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:27,920 The new footage was completely different to the hallway footage. 423 00:37:28,820 --> 00:37:33,730 For one, it was significantly more detailed, so it was less ambiguous. 424 00:37:34,260 --> 00:37:37,160 And it was impossible to dismiss it... 425 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:43,140 as a coincidence of shadow play and digital noise. 426 00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:51,150 There was something inexplicable in our house, that was beyond doubt. 427 00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:59,790 I was concerned. This was pretty unfamiliar territory for me. 428 00:38:01,450 --> 00:38:04,000 I've never seen a ghost before. 429 00:38:21,570 --> 00:38:26,870 Ray got Mathew to help him set up 3 permanent cameras inside the house... 430 00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:31,390 recording in time-lapse configurations 24 hours a day. 431 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:38,660 There'd been a lot of speculation about Ray and what he was doing there. 432 00:38:39,250 --> 00:38:41,080 I mean, when people don't know... 433 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:45,400 that, of course, leads to a lot of talk and a lot of speculation. 434 00:38:45,690 --> 00:38:48,780 I had heard rumors throughout July of video images... 435 00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:52,270 purporting to be of an apparition in the house. 436 00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:56,640 But I must say I was skeptical as to their legitimacy. 437 00:38:57,340 --> 00:39:01,680 - And your view on Ray? - Also very skeptical. 438 00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:04,770 I think they had me as some kind of Rasputin figure... 439 00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:07,400 mesmerizing the Palmers, stealing their money, 440 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,660 doctoring the photos of Alice. 441 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,600 Mathew, in particular, seemed to be really struggling. 442 00:39:22,460 --> 00:39:26,950 I thought I might be able to help this boy by being there, you know. 443 00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:29,460 - Good one. Beautiful. - Well done. 444 00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:32,840 That said, my chief motivation was professional. 445 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,200 Something was happening inside that house... 446 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,890 and I wanted to find out what it was. 447 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,000 What was your reaction to these images? 448 00:40:36,860 --> 00:40:39,580 We were completely gobsmacked by them. 449 00:40:41,070 --> 00:40:43,900 But before we had time to, you know, take in what that meant... 450 00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:46,280 the Withers' video came out. 451 00:40:47,140 --> 00:40:48,440 - Go on. - Is it good? 452 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,690 - Yeah, it's great. - Can I have a look? 453 00:40:51,380 --> 00:40:52,740 Yeah, be careful. 454 00:40:52,740 --> 00:40:56,940 Cathy and Doug Withers were at the dam on April the 3rd, 455 00:40:56,940 --> 00:40:59,980 the same day that the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 456 00:40:59,990 --> 00:41:03,000 - Be careful. - What do you think I'm going to do? 457 00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:09,210 - Give it back. Be careful. - It's safe in my hands, babe. 458 00:41:12,260 --> 00:41:15,710 It was a couple of months later, the end of July, 459 00:41:17,070 --> 00:41:22,470 when we were looking at our footage that we'd shot down at the dam... 460 00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:25,130 and came across... 461 00:41:25,130 --> 00:41:30,260 A figure in the background, which we identified as Bob Smeet, 462 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,550 which interested us 'cause there's... 463 00:41:33,550 --> 00:41:37,610 Yeah, clearly, we didn't... We sorta went, "It was the same day he was there... 464 00:41:37,610 --> 00:41:40,990 "when he captured the image that people have been talking about". 465 00:41:40,990 --> 00:41:44,120 So, then we went through all our footage... 466 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,290 to see if we perhaps might have captured that figure as well. 467 00:41:47,290 --> 00:41:50,980 - Maybe the camera had seen what Bob saw. - Yeah. Yeah. 468 00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:54,930 And we did find a figure in the background 469 00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:58,960 like the image that had been described in his picture. 470 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,840 And then we looked more closely... 471 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,690 - and Doug zoomed in on it. - Yeah, I got right in on the computer. 472 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,980 And from what, you know, could have looked like a female figure... 473 00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:13,750 from a long way away, 474 00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:15,650 up close and tight, 475 00:42:15,650 --> 00:42:20,630 you could see that it definitely was neither female nor Alice. 476 00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:22,440 It was Mathew. 477 00:42:24,830 --> 00:42:27,300 - Do you guys believe in ghosts? - No. 478 00:42:27,300 --> 00:42:29,520 - No. No. - No. 479 00:42:31,870 --> 00:42:35,310 Well, this is where I was when the Bob Smeet photo was taken. 480 00:42:35,310 --> 00:42:40,540 I was wearing Alice's jacket, and I looked up and I saw a man on the hill, 481 00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:42,840 who turned out to be Bob Smeet. 482 00:42:42,850 --> 00:42:46,730 And I didn't wanna be in a photo. 483 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,320 So, I walked off through the bush. 484 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,760 What I didn't see was there was also a couple over there filming, 485 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,670 who turned out to be the Withers. 486 00:43:01,870 --> 00:43:04,860 When the Withers' thing came out, Dad came to me... 487 00:43:04,860 --> 00:43:08,310 and asked me if I had been involved in anything else. 488 00:43:08,310 --> 00:43:12,190 And I didn't wanna lie to him, so I told him. 489 00:43:20,450 --> 00:43:22,720 And I explained to Dad that I was responsible... 490 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:24,880 for the image of Alice in the hallway... 491 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,490 and the bedroom, and that I created the April 28th backyard photo... 492 00:43:30,490 --> 00:43:32,610 and the séance image. 493 00:43:32,930 --> 00:43:34,760 I just told him what I'd done. 494 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,100 Okay, so.. . 495 00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:39,930 I got two photos, a photo of Alice and the backyard... 496 00:43:39,940 --> 00:43:43,240 and composited the images. 497 00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,470 That's a photo that I took of Alice. 498 00:43:45,470 --> 00:43:47,770 Mum kept talking about... 499 00:43:47,770 --> 00:43:49,870 She was always talking about getting Alice exhumed, 500 00:43:49,870 --> 00:43:54,650 and she was really keen on this idea that Dad had misidentified her body. 501 00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:57,920 And so I knew that without more evidence it wasn't going to happen, 502 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,760 so I made the photograph. 503 00:44:05,060 --> 00:44:07,710 I just used an old video of Alice... 504 00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:13,000 and I played that on the TV. 505 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,900 I had the TV up on the book case... 506 00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:17,840 and it was as simple as rotating the mirror... 507 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,440 so that the reflection of the TV came up in it. 508 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,040 And obviously the mirror's quite small, 509 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:25,910 so it cropped out the edges of the television... 510 00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:28,470 and then, yeah, I just filmed that. 511 00:44:28,470 --> 00:44:30,580 Same with the kitchen and the bedroom. 512 00:44:30,580 --> 00:44:35,360 What you see basically is Alice on the television in the mirror. 513 00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:48,110 Like, it wasn't about trying to trick people. 514 00:44:49,310 --> 00:44:52,570 I guess it was like something was better than nothing. 515 00:44:52,570 --> 00:44:56,880 Do you think that what you did ultimately made it worse for June? 516 00:45:03,390 --> 00:45:05,160 I think that.. . 517 00:45:06,460 --> 00:45:10,720 Yeah. Yeah, I probably did make it harder for her. 518 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,770 But, I mean, that wasn't my intention. 519 00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:21,710 I'm not quite so sure about his reasons. 520 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,850 I don't know that I... 521 00:45:26,310 --> 00:45:27,890 totally... 522 00:45:31,610 --> 00:45:34,940 I don't want to say I don't totally believe what he said, 523 00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:39,130 but I'm just not convinced... 524 00:45:39,590 --> 00:45:42,330 that he really knows why he did it. 525 00:45:48,830 --> 00:45:51,730 When it all came out, people wanted to do stories and books... 526 00:45:51,730 --> 00:45:55,950 and women's magazines, the whole lot just went pear-shaped. 527 00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,930 Look, we just didn't know how to handle it. 528 00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:04,440 I mean, you know, we had to protect Matty, we had to protect ourselves, 529 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,240 we had to protect Ali's memory. 530 00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:10,080 And we just didn't have any experience... 531 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,350 of dealing with all this interest in something that was incredibly personal... 532 00:46:14,350 --> 00:46:17,640 that people wanted to make incredibly public. 533 00:46:18,220 --> 00:46:21,780 I mean, the Palmers weren't coping well at all at that point. 534 00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:25,600 And things were very bad, they were doing it tough. 535 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,820 This was like the end of hope for all of us, 536 00:46:31,170 --> 00:46:33,390 but especially for June. 537 00:46:34,770 --> 00:46:37,920 She just really wasn't ready to let Ali go. 538 00:46:41,410 --> 00:46:45,100 She just needed to hang on to her a little bit longer. 539 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,600 And I don't think she would admit it, but she was devastated. 540 00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:04,220 She's an interesting girl. 541 00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:08,180 She seemed to not get on with June so well. 542 00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:10,030 I thought they actually were quite alike. 543 00:47:10,030 --> 00:47:13,330 It was interesting that the two of them might not get on so well. 544 00:47:16,210 --> 00:47:18,810 They always seemed very much alike... 545 00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:23,760 and you could see that Alice took a lot after June. 546 00:47:24,790 --> 00:47:29,300 But, also, other things had become clear as well after Alice's death. 547 00:47:29,330 --> 00:47:32,420 That perhaps a bit of the sense of the private 548 00:47:32,420 --> 00:47:35,610 that they both shared. 549 00:47:36,030 --> 00:47:37,910 Thanks for that. 550 00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:41,920 June was... Well, still is... 551 00:47:42,570 --> 00:47:44,370 She keeps to herself a lot, 552 00:47:44,370 --> 00:47:48,990 and it became clear that that was happening with Alice, too. 553 00:47:50,410 --> 00:47:51,670 They had the sense of privacy. 554 00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:54,180 The sense that there is their own private life... 555 00:47:54,180 --> 00:47:59,770 that they will either choose to share or to not share, I guess. 556 00:48:05,090 --> 00:48:09,650 It's wonderful when your children come and that new expression that you have. 557 00:48:09,650 --> 00:48:13,670 But as a mother, you've still always got doubts... 558 00:48:13,670 --> 00:48:18,510 that you're not doing enough or you're not doing the right thing. 559 00:48:20,940 --> 00:48:24,630 I partly blame myself, that's come from me. 560 00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:27,820 Maybe it came from my mother. 561 00:48:29,780 --> 00:48:32,060 I've never been able to... 562 00:48:34,620 --> 00:48:38,810 I've never been able to give myself over wholly to... 563 00:48:39,630 --> 00:48:41,100 To June. 564 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,980 I feel June is a little like that, too, 565 00:48:46,730 --> 00:48:50,320 that she couldn't give herself wholly to Alice. 566 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,620 I hope that Alice did know how much I loved her. 567 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,290 I guess I held something back a little as she grew older. 568 00:49:08,490 --> 00:49:12,540 That would be the saddest thing, to think she might not know. 569 00:49:21,730 --> 00:49:25,190 Ray suggested that Mathew accompany him... 570 00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:29,260 on one of his country Victorian tours, 571 00:49:29,260 --> 00:49:31,570 where he was doing consultations, 572 00:49:31,570 --> 00:49:34,690 and Mathew jumped at the chance. 573 00:49:36,110 --> 00:49:40,360 - Breakfast. Your shout, I think. - No, I think it's your shout. 574 00:49:56,070 --> 00:50:01,550 I think I realized when I was away how much I missed Alice... 575 00:50:02,340 --> 00:50:06,790 and that I was never going to be able to speak to her again. 576 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,400 I guess that's something that all of Ray's clients are coming to terms with. 577 00:50:12,410 --> 00:50:16,850 You know, they want to talk to someone or make contact with someone they've lost, 578 00:50:16,850 --> 00:50:20,000 and so did I. 579 00:50:21,090 --> 00:50:25,740 So, I was sort of one of Ray's clients in a way as well. 580 00:50:31,130 --> 00:50:32,190 - No. - Can I chuck it at you? 581 00:50:32,190 --> 00:50:34,170 - No. - Let's see what happens. 582 00:50:34,170 --> 00:50:35,220 Well, what do you think is gonna happen? 583 00:50:35,220 --> 00:50:37,270 It's gonna hit me and then I'm gonna get angry. 584 00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:39,610 That's what's gonna happen. No! 585 00:50:40,510 --> 00:50:42,280 Watch yourself. 586 00:50:42,510 --> 00:50:44,990 What are you doing in my room? 587 00:50:45,250 --> 00:50:46,720 I don't know. 588 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,470 Get out! 589 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:13,070 When me and Ray went on the tour, 590 00:51:13,070 --> 00:51:17,290 we left the two rented cameras where they were, in the hallway. 591 00:51:17,940 --> 00:51:21,390 I was sure there was still something in the house. 592 00:51:22,350 --> 00:51:24,610 And obviously, 'cause we were away for the 3 days, 593 00:51:24,610 --> 00:51:27,980 you know, we couldn't change the tapes or anything. 594 00:51:27,980 --> 00:51:32,890 So, we knew we were probably gonna get about, like, a day and a half of footage. 595 00:51:32,890 --> 00:51:35,180 But we left them running... 596 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,330 and got back on August 22nd, 597 00:51:39,330 --> 00:51:42,520 at which point we checked the tapes. 598 00:52:07,290 --> 00:52:11,750 Only Russell and I were in the house when these images were recorded, 599 00:52:11,750 --> 00:52:15,280 Mathew couldn't have had anything to do with them. 600 00:52:16,670 --> 00:52:20,610 They seemed to prove that there was a ghost in our house. 601 00:52:21,570 --> 00:52:23,310 Alice's ghost. 602 00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:33,760 Do you believe in ghosts? 603 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,690 Didn't used to, 604 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,710 but it's a hard thing to prove or disprove. 605 00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:49,010 I think.. . 606 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,550 Yeah, sometimes I think maybe they do exist. 607 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,180 There are ghosts everywhere. 608 00:52:57,370 --> 00:52:59,350 It's a scary world. 609 00:53:00,580 --> 00:53:01,800 I don't know why it's important. 610 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,140 It's like how it helps people, like, dealing with her loss, 611 00:53:05,140 --> 00:53:08,630 like making up stories about ghosts or whatever. 612 00:53:13,390 --> 00:53:15,980 It threw a question mark over everything. 613 00:53:15,980 --> 00:53:19,990 I went back and reviewed all the footage that had come before, 614 00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:24,270 all the material taken inside the house following Alice's death. 615 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,740 It was while I was looking at Mathew's June 13th hallway material again, 616 00:53:34,740 --> 00:53:37,990 that I noticed something in the image. 617 00:53:38,910 --> 00:53:40,070 There was a second figure, 618 00:53:40,070 --> 00:53:43,140 not Mathew in the hallway but someone else, 619 00:53:43,140 --> 00:53:46,090 squatting in the dark in Alice's room. 620 00:53:46,850 --> 00:53:48,970 At first I thought it was Alice. 621 00:53:50,620 --> 00:53:55,280 Then I realized it was our neighbor, Brett Toohey. 622 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,630 What was this man doing in my house, in my daughter's room... 623 00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:10,550 more than six months after her death? 624 00:54:17,020 --> 00:54:21,760 When I found Alice's safe, I realized exactly why he'd been there. 625 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,130 He was looking for the tape. 626 00:54:30,860 --> 00:54:32,440 That's it. 627 00:54:59,660 --> 00:55:02,090 But it was such a.. . It wasn't a very nice day. 628 00:55:02,090 --> 00:55:03,740 Yes. 629 00:55:04,190 --> 00:55:06,160 - You did a smoke ring. - Yes. 630 00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,920 You two getting nice and cozy without me. 631 00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:13,020 Alice began babysitting for the Tooheys in 2002, 632 00:55:13,030 --> 00:55:16,370 and she continued for the next two and a half years. 633 00:55:16,370 --> 00:55:19,950 The Tooheys' two boys were five and nine years old. 634 00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:27,330 I literally just couldn't believe my eyes. 635 00:55:31,620 --> 00:55:34,340 It just made me feel so sad. 636 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,260 As far as I'm concerned, the Tooheys were complicit in Ali's death. 637 00:55:44,260 --> 00:55:47,730 I believe that if it hadn't been for them, she would have reached out to us. 638 00:55:47,730 --> 00:55:50,200 She wouldn't have felt guilty. 639 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,680 She wouldn't have felt the burden of that secret. 640 00:55:54,380 --> 00:55:56,960 She wouldn't have been isolated. 641 00:56:00,210 --> 00:56:03,020 How do you feel towards Brett now? 642 00:56:03,450 --> 00:56:07,160 If he was around the corner, I'd probably throttle him. 643 00:56:07,550 --> 00:56:11,510 He seemed like a nice guy. You know, he was nice. 644 00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:17,540 We'd speak and he was never like, you know, nasty or anything. 645 00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:21,360 He had a pool at his place and usually... 646 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:22,360 We used to swim there sometimes. 647 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:23,460 - Yeah. - During the summer. 648 00:56:23,460 --> 00:56:26,690 So, usually we just go to his place and have a swim there. 649 00:56:27,810 --> 00:56:29,000 I was really bewildered... 650 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,600 - about, you know, what happened. - Yeah. 651 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,010 It took a lot just to realize... 652 00:56:34,010 --> 00:56:37,210 'Cause, you know, I had no idea that Alice would... 653 00:56:37,210 --> 00:56:38,650 No, be with somebody, I know. 654 00:56:38,650 --> 00:56:40,620 Yeah, it was like a complete surprise. 655 00:56:40,620 --> 00:56:44,590 Like, we just didn't think, you know, she'd do something like that. 656 00:56:44,590 --> 00:56:46,000 Yeah. 657 00:56:48,860 --> 00:56:51,700 Why do you think Alice had the tape? 658 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,930 Because she didn't want them to have it. 659 00:56:55,930 --> 00:56:59,410 - Why is that? - She didn't trust them anymore, I think. 660 00:57:01,340 --> 00:57:04,890 They must've been really desperate to get that tape. 661 00:57:05,210 --> 00:57:08,760 From the moment that they'd heard of Alice's death, 662 00:57:09,050 --> 00:57:13,430 they would've been living in this constant fear of being found out. 663 00:57:16,590 --> 00:57:20,670 I'm glad he couldn't find it. I'm glad he knows it's not over. 664 00:57:24,660 --> 00:57:27,290 I had a lot of personal dealings with the Palmers during this time... 665 00:57:27,290 --> 00:57:29,190 as part of the investigating team... 666 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,880 trying to locate Brett and Marissa Tooheyand family. 667 00:57:33,540 --> 00:57:38,270 And initially we were optimistic that they would be found... 668 00:57:38,270 --> 00:57:40,350 and charges laid. 669 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,330 But, unfortunately, the leads that we were working with... 670 00:57:43,850 --> 00:57:47,460 soon dried up, and so the investigation stalled. 671 00:57:48,450 --> 00:57:52,050 So, the police's advice to us was that even if the Tooheys were caught, 672 00:57:52,050 --> 00:57:53,850 they would get off with a suspended sentence... 673 00:57:53,850 --> 00:57:56,720 by claiming that the sex was consensual, 674 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,210 which was, they claimed, you know, supported by the video evidence. 675 00:58:01,230 --> 00:58:05,010 Jason, did you know about Alice's involvement with Brett? 676 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,050 No. No one did. 677 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,020 Obviously I didn't. 678 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,590 We wouldn't be going out if I did. It was.. . No. 679 00:58:16,850 --> 00:58:20,830 I thought we were... I thought we were pretty good. 680 00:58:31,930 --> 00:58:35,010 It just left so many unanswered questions. 681 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,190 Why was she involved with him? 682 00:58:38,190 --> 00:58:41,100 When did the relationship begin? 683 00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:43,940 Was she in love with either of them? 684 00:58:45,740 --> 00:58:47,650 I just don't know. 685 00:58:50,980 --> 00:58:55,390 The Tooheys sold their house and moved, 6 months after Alice died. 686 00:59:05,090 --> 00:59:07,070 Alice kept secrets. 687 00:59:07,660 --> 00:59:11,570 She kept the fact she kept secrets a secret. 688 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,200 Which does change the way that you see somebody, I suppose, 689 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:20,150 when you realize that they did hide things from you a bit. 690 00:59:21,340 --> 00:59:25,940 I think I knew one Alice and maybe her mum knew another, 691 00:59:25,940 --> 00:59:30,030 and there was another one again that none of us knew maybe. 692 00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,690 I found Ray's business card taped to Alice's diary... 693 00:59:47,700 --> 00:59:51,310 on the page marked 12th of July, 2005. 694 00:59:56,610 --> 00:59:58,670 Why have you come to see me, Alice? 695 00:59:58,670 --> 01:00:01,590 Can you interpret dreams? 696 01:00:01,750 --> 01:00:03,330 Sometimes. 697 01:00:03,910 --> 01:00:06,100 How do you feel when you wake up from these dreams? 698 01:00:11,250 --> 01:00:12,690 They scare me a bit. 699 01:00:12,690 --> 01:00:16,460 Alice came to see me about five months before she died. 700 01:00:16,930 --> 01:00:18,860 I think she'd heard me on the radio a few times... 701 01:00:18,860 --> 01:00:21,330 and rang and made an appointment. 702 01:00:21,330 --> 01:00:23,920 Take a deep breath. Close your eyes. 703 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,430 I want you to imagine you're standing outside your house. 704 01:00:26,430 --> 01:00:29,310 When you can see that, you tell me. 705 01:00:37,010 --> 01:00:39,090 - Okay? - Yeah. 706 01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,820 All right. Now, I want you to go inside the front door. 707 01:00:44,850 --> 01:00:48,310 Go into the house. Tell me what you see, where you are. 708 01:00:48,310 --> 01:00:51,190 Ray, why didn't you tell June that you'd actually met Alice before? 709 01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:53,850 Okay, I'm in the entrance.. . 710 01:00:53,850 --> 01:00:56,160 Look, I don't think it was a case of hiding something from them. 711 01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:00,750 It was more that I was honoring Alice's request for confidentiality. 712 01:01:00,970 --> 01:01:04,420 But it was damned if you do, damned if you don't, you know. 713 01:01:04,540 --> 01:01:08,570 The living room's just directly ahead. 714 01:01:08,570 --> 01:01:11,080 Then you go to your right... 715 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:15,890 and my room's in the back part of the house as you go towards the kitchen. 716 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,030 Do you see anything unusual? Anything different? 717 01:01:23,020 --> 01:01:24,300 No. 718 01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:28,320 No, we didn't feel like we could trust Ray anymore. 719 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,890 For whatever reasons he had of keeping that information to himself, 720 01:01:31,890 --> 01:01:34,840 it still felt like a betrayal. 721 01:01:40,370 --> 01:01:45,170 I wanted to help June and the family and I think they wanted me to help them. 722 01:01:45,170 --> 01:01:48,760 I wouldn't have been able to do it if they'd known. 723 01:01:49,550 --> 01:01:53,760 There was a fair bit of resentment. Mathew wouldn't even speak to me. 724 01:01:53,950 --> 01:01:55,850 But what I think really hurt them more than anything... 725 01:01:55,850 --> 01:02:01,670 was what they saw as my failure to see Alice's eminent passing. 726 01:02:02,260 --> 01:02:05,170 Looking back, like, it's kind of strange 727 01:02:05,300 --> 01:02:10,380 that someone would, you know, be as close to us as he was... 728 01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:16,320 I think, maybe, he needed us as much as we needed him. 729 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,300 Alice came to see me because she was upset. 730 01:02:32,620 --> 01:02:35,540 She was a very troubled person. 731 01:02:37,630 --> 01:02:39,560 "I had a dream last night. 732 01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:44,400 "I was cold and wet. I felt heavy, like I'd been drugged, 733 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,420 "and when I woke up, these sensations didn't go. 734 01:02:49,070 --> 01:02:54,820 "I was feeling sick and confused and I was starting to get scared. 735 01:02:56,210 --> 01:02:58,950 "I needed to see Mum to talk to her. 736 01:02:59,850 --> 01:03:01,510 "I stumbled to her room... 737 01:03:01,510 --> 01:03:04,780 "and as I stood there at the bed, watching them, 738 01:03:04,780 --> 01:03:08,370 "I was overcome by this intense sadness. 739 01:03:09,290 --> 01:03:11,240 "Then the sadness turned to fear. 740 01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,100 "I just stood there paralyzed with fear... 741 01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:18,630 "and I realized there was nothing that they could do for me anymore. 742 01:03:18,630 --> 01:03:21,350 "I've never felt so utterly alone. 743 01:03:21,940 --> 01:03:25,020 "Everything felt wrong. My body, 744 01:03:27,010 --> 01:03:28,870 "the way things looked. 745 01:03:28,870 --> 01:03:32,760 "Then I realized that there was something wrong with me. 746 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:38,560 "I started to cry, standing there at the foot of the bed". 747 01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,210 Lake Mungo is in southwestern New South Wales, 748 01:04:13,220 --> 01:04:17,420 and that was the location of the school camp that Alice went on... 749 01:04:17,420 --> 01:04:21,180 from August the 2nd to the 5th in 2005. 750 01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:27,470 When she came home, she said she'd had a good time. 751 01:04:27,470 --> 01:04:29,190 I do particularly remember it... 752 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,760 because she came home without her mobile phone, 753 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,030 which we'd bought her a month previously, 754 01:04:35,030 --> 01:04:38,420 and her favorite bracelet and watch. 755 01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:46,120 Yes, other than that, you know, she didn't really talk about it too much. 756 01:04:47,690 --> 01:04:49,630 Wait, guys! 757 01:04:55,130 --> 01:04:58,820 Well, Kim didn't show me till about a year after she got back from camp... 758 01:04:58,820 --> 01:05:01,360 the stuff that she'd taken on her mobile phone. 759 01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,740 So, why'd you decide to tell June? 760 01:05:04,740 --> 01:05:07,860 Well, if we didn't tell June, 761 01:05:07,860 --> 01:05:09,800 then it would be like we were hiding something. 762 01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,360 So, I don't know why... 763 01:05:14,850 --> 01:05:18,400 I don't know why, but why not? 764 01:05:18,450 --> 01:05:20,470 Smile for me! 765 01:05:20,470 --> 01:05:23,930 - Smile. - They're a little bit tipsy, that's all. 766 01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:29,800 Jason told us about the phone footage that the girls had taken at Lake Mungo. 767 01:05:37,630 --> 01:05:40,470 The other girls were looking so happy... 768 01:05:40,470 --> 01:05:44,130 and she looked quite forlorn. 769 01:05:44,130 --> 01:05:49,120 I was worried. I became convinced that something had happened to her. 770 01:05:55,050 --> 01:05:57,350 So, just get a little bit. ust some of it. 771 01:05:57,350 --> 01:06:00,650 Kate's phone footage was taken later that night... 772 01:06:00,650 --> 01:06:03,410 once the girls had spread out over the lunettes. 773 01:06:03,460 --> 01:06:06,760 - anywhere. - I think that we need to get a photo. 774 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:11,280 Like Africa. Like the desert. 775 01:06:11,700 --> 01:06:15,260 There was an image of Alice, very hard to decipher, 776 01:06:15,260 --> 01:06:18,750 in the bottom of the frame kneeling under a tree. 777 01:06:20,780 --> 01:06:22,710 It was only after viewing the clip several times... 778 01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:25,550 that we realized what she was doing. 779 01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,350 She was burying something. 780 01:06:31,450 --> 01:06:35,180 I mean, did you know what had happened that night with Alice? 781 01:06:35,180 --> 01:06:36,530 No. 782 01:06:38,130 --> 01:06:40,400 I knew she'd lost her phone. 783 01:06:41,530 --> 01:06:45,760 I knew she was upset because that was pretty obvious. 784 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:47,710 But I didn't know why she was upset. 785 01:06:49,500 --> 01:06:53,230 She didn't say that she'd seen anything, she didn't really say anything to me. 786 01:06:53,230 --> 01:06:57,720 I didn't really... perhaps, take it that seriously at the time. 787 01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:00,210 You know, it was like context. 788 01:07:00,210 --> 01:07:02,390 You know, we were just having a good time... 789 01:07:02,390 --> 01:07:04,660 and I just thought she'd gotten a bit upset. 790 01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:18,400 It started simply enough. 791 01:07:19,130 --> 01:07:21,530 Alice left the group... 792 01:07:21,530 --> 01:07:25,410 and started walking off by herself. 793 01:07:27,110 --> 01:07:30,420 But it was... Obviously, something was distressing her. 794 01:07:32,140 --> 01:07:35,390 And we wanted to try and find out what it was. 795 01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:55,900 We understood from the phone video that she'd buried something. 796 01:07:55,900 --> 01:07:58,230 We had an idea where the tree was... 797 01:07:58,230 --> 01:08:02,250 because of what we could see from the video. 798 01:08:04,110 --> 01:08:06,230 We didn't really want to go down during the day time... 799 01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:09,870 because, you know, we didn't want to be digging, 800 01:08:09,870 --> 01:08:12,430 you know, where tourists were. 801 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,960 So, we decided to go at night. 802 01:08:34,070 --> 01:08:38,260 June and I started digging and after a bit, 803 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:43,670 June said she'd found something and she pulled out a plastic bag. 804 01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:49,340 And inside the plastic bag there was Ali's favorite necklace, 805 01:08:49,340 --> 01:08:52,300 her ring, her watch, her mobile phone. 806 01:08:53,490 --> 01:08:56,230 Her most precious things... 807 01:08:56,860 --> 01:08:59,630 buried out here on a school camp, 808 01:08:59,830 --> 01:09:02,050 and we didn't know why she did that. 809 01:09:02,900 --> 01:09:05,190 I mean, we knew from the video that she'd buried something, 810 01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:08,040 but we didn't know what it was. 811 01:09:10,970 --> 01:09:12,750 It's low on battery. 812 01:09:31,730 --> 01:09:33,940 Are you scared of dying? 813 01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:39,810 Yeah, of course I'm scared of dying. Isn't everyone scared of dying? 814 01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:49,950 Would you like to tell me a little bit about what happens in these dreams? 815 01:09:51,810 --> 01:09:55,960 I feel like something bad is gonna happen to me. 816 01:09:56,750 --> 01:09:59,700 I feel like something bad has happened. 817 01:10:00,220 --> 01:10:03,460 It hasn't reached me yet, but it's on its way. 818 01:10:06,330 --> 01:10:08,480 And it's getting closer. 819 01:10:09,830 --> 01:10:11,790 And I don't feel ready. 820 01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:15,340 I feel like I can't do anything. 821 01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:30,470 At some point, 822 01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:35,170 this figure came towards her from out of the darkness. 823 01:10:35,850 --> 01:10:39,010 I recognized the face as soon as I saw it on the phone video. 824 01:10:39,020 --> 01:10:44,440 It was the same face of the body that I had identified at the dam. 825 01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:48,650 It was Ali's body and Ali's face. 826 01:10:56,270 --> 01:11:01,360 There is absolutely no rational explanation... 827 01:11:01,740 --> 01:11:06,400 for what she saw on that phone. 828 01:11:23,770 --> 01:11:25,950 Stay far away from me. 829 01:11:44,420 --> 01:11:47,870 - Oh, my God, they're coming. - Stay away! 830 01:12:04,100 --> 01:12:09,760 I am convinced that Alice knew she was going to die. 831 01:12:10,110 --> 01:12:11,130 I'm convinced of that. 832 01:12:11,130 --> 01:12:13,830 Bundle up, bundle up, bundle up. 833 01:12:14,610 --> 01:12:18,960 I think the figure at Lake Mungo was an omen for her. 834 01:12:19,390 --> 01:12:24,220 The burial of her possessions was symbolic, 835 01:12:24,220 --> 01:12:26,130 it was a ritual. 836 01:12:29,660 --> 01:12:33,460 No, I was never convinced that Ali believed she was gonna die. 837 01:12:33,460 --> 01:12:37,330 You know, she had morbid thoughts, sure. I mean, who doesn't? 838 01:12:37,330 --> 01:12:41,950 And she had nightmares that upset her, and enough to consult Ray. 839 01:12:46,210 --> 01:12:47,970 I don't know that anybody's really convinced... 840 01:12:47,970 --> 01:12:50,160 that they're gonna die. 841 01:12:53,750 --> 01:12:55,220 And what about the image at Lake Mungo? 842 01:12:55,220 --> 01:12:58,550 How do you think Alice would have explained that? 843 01:12:58,550 --> 01:13:01,200 How could she have explained it? 844 01:13:07,100 --> 01:13:09,580 Look, I think Ali saw a ghost. 845 01:13:10,870 --> 01:13:14,020 But she wasn't to know that it was her own. 846 01:13:14,710 --> 01:13:16,700 I believe she recorded a ghost. 847 01:13:16,700 --> 01:13:20,760 I believe she recorded the future coming to get her. 848 01:13:38,290 --> 01:13:44,180 We had found out about the Tooheys, Ray, and what had happened at Lake Mungo. 849 01:13:45,430 --> 01:13:48,680 And by the time we returned home, 850 01:13:50,170 --> 01:13:52,980 the house felt different. It was... 851 01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:56,020 Calm. 852 01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:10,730 I think that Alice wanted us to know more about her. 853 01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:15,170 She wanted us to know who she really was, 854 01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:18,280 before she... 855 01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:21,850 You know, before she could leave. 856 01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:34,430 In the weeks and months after Lake Mungo, we started to feel like a family again. 857 01:14:35,750 --> 01:14:37,770 It just crept up on us, really. 858 01:14:37,770 --> 01:14:43,630 We were a little battered and wobbly, but we were a family all the same. 859 01:14:52,230 --> 01:14:53,320 - Hi, Ray. - Nice to see you, Russell. 860 01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:55,330 Yeah, you too. Nice. Come in. 861 01:14:55,330 --> 01:14:57,030 Ray called out of the blue... 862 01:14:57,030 --> 01:14:59,830 and said he was going to be coming through town... 863 01:14:59,830 --> 01:15:04,110 and asked if it was all right if he could come round and visit. 864 01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,230 Six months had gone by, 865 01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:11,180 and I just felt that under the circumstances, 866 01:15:11,180 --> 01:15:13,990 I didn't think it could do any harm. 867 01:15:17,620 --> 01:15:21,170 I think we all felt that after Mungo, 868 01:15:21,590 --> 01:15:25,610 in our own ways, there'd been closure, I suppose, to a degree. 869 01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:28,260 And, you know, for each of us it's different. 870 01:15:28,260 --> 01:15:31,750 And for each of us, we've made our own peace. 871 01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:43,410 It seems strange to me that Ali should withdraw so abruptly. 872 01:15:43,410 --> 01:15:48,060 And we didn't help her, we didn't change anything. 873 01:15:48,550 --> 01:15:54,260 I think we just collectively made a decision to move forward. 874 01:15:55,060 --> 01:15:57,990 And, you know, moving... 875 01:15:57,990 --> 01:16:02,250 was really a big part of all that... Deciding to move. 876 01:16:20,620 --> 01:16:23,600 It will be difficult to leave the house. 877 01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,800 Sometimes, you know, I just forget that... 878 01:16:30,260 --> 01:16:33,410 She's not coming back. 879 01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,310 I forget. 880 01:17:06,830 --> 01:17:10,010 Okay. Close your eyes... 881 01:17:11,630 --> 01:17:15,440 and imagine that you're back standing outside the house. 882 01:17:16,740 --> 01:17:18,510 Can you see it? 883 01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:24,690 Go inside the house. 884 01:17:26,950 --> 01:17:29,600 I'm going through the front door. 885 01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:33,330 And... 886 01:17:36,290 --> 01:17:39,370 Walking down the hall towards Alice's room. 887 01:17:45,460 --> 01:17:47,310 Someone's there. 888 01:17:48,070 --> 01:17:50,190 I think someone's coming down the hall. 889 01:17:50,190 --> 01:17:51,920 Door's open. 890 01:17:54,270 --> 01:17:56,390 Do you know who it is? 891 01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:10,270 Do you want to go inside? 892 01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:12,700 Yeah. 893 01:18:14,690 --> 01:18:15,970 Okay. 894 01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:29,850 - What do you see? - It's my mum. 895 01:18:32,110 --> 01:18:34,020 What's she saying? 896 01:18:34,740 --> 01:18:37,720 She's not... She's not saying anything. 897 01:18:44,090 --> 01:18:46,770 I don't think she knows I'm there. 898 01:18:50,460 --> 01:18:52,340 Alice isn't here. 899 01:18:53,700 --> 01:18:55,470 She's not here. 900 01:18:57,030 --> 01:18:58,720 What's happening, Alice? 901 01:19:00,140 --> 01:19:02,260 Are you talking to her? Is she talking to you? 902 01:19:02,260 --> 01:19:04,180 She's going now. 903 01:19:06,340 --> 01:19:08,490 She's leaving the room. 904 01:19:11,180 --> 01:19:12,790 She's gone. 905 01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:15,090 Open your eyes. 906 01:20:09,030 --> 01:20:10,880 She's going now. 907 01:20:13,270 --> 01:20:15,420 She's leaving the room. 908 01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:25,970 All the way. 909 01:20:45,070 --> 01:20:46,680 She's gone.