1 00:00:07,439 --> 00:00:11,739 2 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,974 Michael, uh, you remember me from the last time you and I talked? 3 00:00:31,044 --> 00:00:32,909 About a week ago? 4 00:00:32,979 --> 00:00:36,039 You see this camera? You're going to have to say "yes"... 5 00:00:36,116 --> 00:00:38,277 so that camera can take down everything you say. 6 00:00:38,352 --> 00:00:42,379 Because that camera can't take down something when you shake your head. 7 00:00:42,456 --> 00:00:46,256 Can you say "yes" for us? Let me hear you say, "yes." "Yes." 8 00:00:46,326 --> 00:00:49,523 That's pretty good. How about a little bit louder than that? "Yes." 9 00:00:49,596 --> 00:00:53,726 And we talked about what happened on the 13th of May? 10 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,132 - You remember that? - Yeah. 11 00:00:56,203 --> 00:01:02,039 Now, Michael, do you know what it is to, uh-to tell the truth about things? 12 00:01:02,843 --> 00:01:05,243 You're gonna have to say "yes." You can't shake your head. "Yes." 13 00:01:05,278 --> 00:01:10,341 Okay. What does it mean when you have to tell the truth about things? 14 00:01:11,485 --> 00:01:13,919 - Don't lie. - Don't lie. That's right. 15 00:01:13,987 --> 00:01:17,286 And do you know what happens to people who lie? 16 00:01:18,759 --> 00:01:19,851 - Hmm? - Yeah. 17 00:01:19,926 --> 00:01:21,985 - What happens to them? - They get hurt. 18 00:01:22,062 --> 00:01:24,087 They get hurt. 19 00:01:41,648 --> 00:01:44,412 Yes, the big story on Action News tonight is the effort to evict MOVE... 20 00:01:44,484 --> 00:01:47,419 from its house on the 6200 block of Osage Avenue. 21 00:01:47,487 --> 00:01:49,580 The effort has turned into a disaster. 22 00:01:49,656 --> 00:01:54,025 The fire is now five-alarm, still raging out of control as you can see. 23 00:01:54,094 --> 00:01:57,427 An unknown number of heavily-armed MOVE members continue at large, 24 00:01:57,497 --> 00:01:59,431 possibly roaming the alleyways. 25 00:01:59,499 --> 00:02:03,731 Going in, everybody knew that MOVE would resist anything. 26 00:02:03,804 --> 00:02:07,501 While the police will say that they come here to arrest people, 27 00:02:07,574 --> 00:02:09,098 we have done nothing wrong. 28 00:02:09,176 --> 00:02:11,770 We do not want policemen killed. We do not want people in the house killed. 29 00:02:11,845 --> 00:02:14,541 Fellow officer, James Ramp, was killed seven years ago. 30 00:02:14,614 --> 00:02:16,104 They will never forget that. 31 00:02:16,750 --> 00:02:19,947 Okay. This is unconfirmed. We've got to emphasize this is unconfirmed. 32 00:02:20,020 --> 00:02:22,750 But Channel 10 technician, Fran Hardy reports- 33 00:02:22,823 --> 00:02:25,951 An incendiary device was dropped out of that helicopter. 34 00:02:26,026 --> 00:02:28,221 Nobody around here has ever seen anything like this. 35 00:02:28,929 --> 00:02:33,559 We expect that maybe 60, perhaps more, homes have gone up in flames. 36 00:02:33,633 --> 00:02:37,535 I stand fully accountable for the actions that took place tonight. 37 00:02:38,138 --> 00:02:43,371 How did an attempt to arrest MOVE members become an inferno that killed 11 people... 38 00:02:43,443 --> 00:02:45,240 and destroyed 61 homes? 39 00:02:45,312 --> 00:02:50,249 You can call the group reactionists, revolutionaries, terrorists. 40 00:02:50,317 --> 00:02:55,755 That was a decision... to let the fire burn. 41 00:03:28,889 --> 00:03:33,417 On May 13, 1985, 42 00:03:33,493 --> 00:03:36,929 years of conflict between the city of Philadelphia... 43 00:03:36,997 --> 00:03:40,228 and a small, urban group known as MOVE... 44 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:44,168 ended in a violent, daylong encounter... 45 00:03:44,237 --> 00:03:47,297 between the groups' members and the Philadelphia police. 46 00:03:48,775 --> 00:03:54,475 It was one of the most devastating days in the modern history of the city. 47 00:03:55,682 --> 00:03:58,674 Before we call the first witness... 48 00:03:58,752 --> 00:04:01,414 I want to tell you about this special commission. 49 00:04:02,656 --> 00:04:06,888 We are men and women, black and white, 50 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,588 guided by our own attitudes and beliefs. 51 00:04:11,298 --> 00:04:15,325 What we hope to accomplish is to begin healing the wounds... 52 00:04:15,402 --> 00:04:20,965 caused by the failure to resolve conflicting lifestyles in a peaceful way. 53 00:04:38,858 --> 00:04:41,918 Six, five, four, three... 54 00:04:43,863 --> 00:04:49,096 This is MOVE, the people in an organization that admits to being totally revolutionary. 55 00:04:49,169 --> 00:04:51,307 For the past four years, they have lived in the 56 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,469 Powelton Village area of West Philadelphia, 57 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:56,634 often running into conflicts with police. 58 00:04:56,710 --> 00:04:59,133 Their personal appearance has brought stares and 59 00:04:59,146 --> 00:05:01,579 some expressions of disapproval from the community. 60 00:05:01,648 --> 00:05:04,446 But it what they do that counts, not how they look. 61 00:05:04,517 --> 00:05:08,544 In everything from work habits to child raising, MOVE is revolutionary. 62 00:05:08,622 --> 00:05:11,352 Uh, I was indoctrinated with a philosophy in the Panthers... 63 00:05:11,424 --> 00:05:15,383 that revolution only meant picking up a gun and going out and murdering somebody. 64 00:05:15,462 --> 00:05:19,728 I never thought that revolution consisted of revolutionizing myself... 65 00:05:19,799 --> 00:05:22,791 to get away from the things that caused me to wanna revolt. 66 00:05:24,037 --> 00:05:28,201 MOVE does not believe in technology. They use a wood-burning stove for heat, 67 00:05:28,274 --> 00:05:30,139 and they have no electricity. 68 00:05:30,210 --> 00:05:33,145 But they do have cars, and they have a telephone. Why? 69 00:05:33,213 --> 00:05:37,479 All the answers are in the guidelines, their bible left by John Africa. 70 00:05:39,853 --> 00:05:45,587 Miss Sims, can you describe for me what the philosophy of MOVE was? 71 00:05:45,659 --> 00:05:48,514 What did John Africa teach with regard to the 72 00:05:48,527 --> 00:05:51,393 society in which you found yourself living? 73 00:05:51,464 --> 00:05:53,557 You're asking what was being taught? 74 00:05:53,633 --> 00:05:54,622 Yes, ma'am. 75 00:05:54,701 --> 00:05:58,660 Okay. Um, the absolute truth. 76 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,703 We were being taught about this system. 77 00:06:04,644 --> 00:06:06,908 The corruption in this system. 78 00:06:08,581 --> 00:06:14,042 But mainly, it was... just the absolute truth. 79 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:20,787 What John Africa did was... expose the lie in the system. 80 00:06:20,860 --> 00:06:22,350 Uncover it. 81 00:06:22,429 --> 00:06:25,296 Could you describe what you mean by the word "the system", please? 82 00:06:25,365 --> 00:06:27,299 The system. The establishment. You. 83 00:06:31,204 --> 00:06:33,900 Philadelphia is a tortured city. 84 00:06:33,973 --> 00:06:36,533 Trash piles up at the curbline. 85 00:06:36,609 --> 00:06:39,203 Kids are afraid to walk to school. 86 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,043 Abandoned homes pockmark the ghetto. 87 00:06:42,115 --> 00:06:46,711 Philadelphia needs a strong man for a tough job. 88 00:06:46,786 --> 00:06:49,550 Philadelphia needs Frank Rizzo as mayor. 89 00:06:51,257 --> 00:06:54,920 A small, vocal minority among us... 90 00:06:54,994 --> 00:06:59,158 seeks to destroy the heritage of 1776. 91 00:06:59,232 --> 00:07:05,193 We must be ever-vigilant that this minority does not impose its philosophy... 92 00:07:05,271 --> 00:07:08,604 on the unwilling majority of Americans. 93 00:07:10,510 --> 00:07:14,412 In their vigilant effort to maintain close contact with mother Earth, 94 00:07:14,481 --> 00:07:18,679 the MOVE members are breaking up the cement of the sidewalk around their property. 95 00:07:24,324 --> 00:07:26,758 Yeah, life. 96 00:07:27,761 --> 00:07:31,060 But you are not animals. I mean... 97 00:07:31,131 --> 00:07:32,826 - Why not? - I don't want to be personal. 98 00:07:32,899 --> 00:07:35,163 - Wait a minute. Why not? - Yes, we are. 99 00:07:35,235 --> 00:07:39,899 We are animals, because our reference is no different than the reference of animals. 100 00:07:39,973 --> 00:07:41,693 There's only one reference, and that's life. 101 00:07:41,708 --> 00:07:45,610 That's what MOVE is about. Life. Truth. That's our religion. 102 00:07:50,016 --> 00:07:53,679 We see John Africa in the same way that people saw Jesus Christ... 103 00:07:53,753 --> 00:07:58,850 because of his carpentry, because of his simple way of living, and so forth. 104 00:07:58,925 --> 00:08:04,659 Now, we know that John Africa is a man who can explain Jesus Christ. 105 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:12,194 When Reverend Audrey Bronson wants to practice her religion, nobody beats her up. 106 00:08:13,506 --> 00:08:18,341 But when MOVE wanted to practice their religion, people started talking about, uh, 107 00:08:18,411 --> 00:08:21,073 "it's not done that way." 108 00:08:21,147 --> 00:08:27,108 There are Catholics and Methodists, evangelists, theologians, you name it. 109 00:08:27,187 --> 00:08:29,747 We were the religion of life. 110 00:08:29,823 --> 00:08:34,385 Where is it written that we could not have a religion of our own? 111 00:08:34,460 --> 00:08:37,429 Your brother, Vincent Leapheart was John Africa, is that correct? 112 00:08:37,497 --> 00:08:42,127 My brother, Vincent Leapheart, was my brother. 113 00:08:42,202 --> 00:08:45,899 John Africa was the founder of the MOVE organization. 114 00:08:45,972 --> 00:08:48,668 And they were one and the same? 115 00:08:48,741 --> 00:08:51,904 I said my brother was my brother. 116 00:08:51,978 --> 00:08:56,312 And I said John Africa was the founder of the MOVE organization. 117 00:08:56,382 --> 00:09:00,250 John-Vincent Leapheart is my brother. 118 00:09:07,827 --> 00:09:12,059 When Michael was about two years of age, he was taken by his mother... 119 00:09:12,131 --> 00:09:17,091 to a residence occupied by members of an organization called MOVE. 120 00:09:17,170 --> 00:09:20,606 And Michael was subsequently given the name of Birdie Africa. 121 00:09:22,141 --> 00:09:25,406 Michael Ward was, of course, no more a member of MOVE... 122 00:09:25,478 --> 00:09:29,073 than a child of Republican or Democratic parents... 123 00:09:29,148 --> 00:09:31,616 would be styled by a particular party label. 124 00:09:31,684 --> 00:09:35,245 He was throughout, an absolutely innocent, 125 00:09:35,321 --> 00:09:39,690 guiltless, and under the circumstances, vulnerable child and youngster. 126 00:10:26,306 --> 00:10:31,300 Now, when you go to school and you embrace that education, 127 00:10:31,377 --> 00:10:35,279 the very first thing you are taught in school is separation... 128 00:10:35,348 --> 00:10:38,943 is categorization, alienation, conflict. 129 00:10:39,018 --> 00:10:41,919 You're taught black, white, blue, green. 130 00:10:41,988 --> 00:10:46,118 Up, down, back, forth. Taught, uh, Protestant, Catholic. 131 00:10:46,192 --> 00:10:49,684 Taught Yale, Harvard. Conflict. War. 132 00:10:49,762 --> 00:10:55,029 You know, if a child does not know that he is black and I am white, 133 00:10:55,101 --> 00:10:56,864 if he is not taught that categorization, 134 00:10:56,936 --> 00:10:58,528 if he is not taught that separation, 135 00:10:58,604 --> 00:11:01,801 In the place of that, all he can gravitate to, 136 00:11:01,874 --> 00:11:04,968 all he can know is harmony, is unity, is love. 137 00:11:22,996 --> 00:11:24,987 Life! Life! 138 00:11:26,175 --> 00:11:28,175 - Did you like raw food? - Some of it. 139 00:11:28,201 --> 00:11:31,466 Some of it? What did you like particularly? 140 00:11:32,438 --> 00:11:35,874 Watermelon, mangoes... 141 00:11:35,942 --> 00:11:38,240 and sweet potatoes and onions. 142 00:11:38,311 --> 00:11:41,109 And onions. Did you all eat any meat at all? 143 00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:43,375 Only one time we ate raw chicken. 144 00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:46,586 Why would the adults eat cooked food and the 145 00:11:46,599 --> 00:11:48,646 children not eat cooked food? Do you know? 146 00:11:48,721 --> 00:11:50,985 They said they wasn't used to raw food. 147 00:11:51,057 --> 00:11:54,515 They weren't used to raw food and the children were used to raw food. 148 00:12:10,943 --> 00:12:14,344 Were you all ever punished for taking the food or anything? 149 00:12:16,115 --> 00:12:18,675 Yeah. Did they punish you when you... 150 00:12:18,751 --> 00:12:21,311 - They had meetings on us. - They had meetings? 151 00:12:21,387 --> 00:12:23,617 Would they ever hit the children? 152 00:12:25,224 --> 00:12:28,250 Uh, so you didn't get any spankings or anything like that? 153 00:12:28,327 --> 00:12:31,592 - They didn't believe in spanking. - They didn't believe in spankings. 154 00:12:31,664 --> 00:12:37,125 I see. Did you, uh-When they holler at the children, what would the children do? 155 00:12:37,203 --> 00:12:38,966 - Cry. - They would cry? 156 00:12:39,038 --> 00:12:41,268 - Did they ever holler at you? - Yes. 157 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:43,831 - Did you cry when you were hollered at? - Yeah. 158 00:12:47,146 --> 00:12:50,445 - Did they-Did they say they loved you? - Yeah. 159 00:12:50,516 --> 00:12:52,416 Did you love them? 160 00:13:10,136 --> 00:13:13,537 I came in contact with MOVE back in 1974. 161 00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:16,399 We had a number of rap sessions with youngsters... 162 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:19,604 in terms of trying to offer a different point of view. 163 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,773 Did they appear to you to be violent at all? 164 00:13:22,849 --> 00:13:28,515 No, it basically appeared to be a progressive, uh, political organization... 165 00:13:28,588 --> 00:13:31,182 pretty much concerned about the issues... 166 00:13:31,257 --> 00:13:33,555 that impacted on the black community. 167 00:13:34,727 --> 00:13:39,027 Officer Cresse, was there any indication that you were aware of... 168 00:13:39,098 --> 00:13:42,659 that, uh, the MOVE members were potentially violent? 169 00:13:44,437 --> 00:13:47,838 Other than being, uh, vocal, no, sir. 170 00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:53,304 They can put out weird things like you can hear me use profanity. 171 00:13:53,379 --> 00:13:59,477 But is it possible to describe a maniac, a profane, obscene, pornographic freak... 172 00:13:59,552 --> 00:14:01,315 without using profane words? 173 00:14:01,387 --> 00:14:04,254 Motherfuckers! 174 00:14:07,894 --> 00:14:13,730 Do you have information concerning how many arrests occurred involving MOVE? 175 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:16,495 There was 141 demonstrations. 176 00:14:18,204 --> 00:14:20,434 There was 97 court cases. 177 00:14:22,508 --> 00:14:27,070 There was eight meetings, and there was 193 arrests. 178 00:14:28,814 --> 00:14:30,873 I have as just as much right... 179 00:14:30,950 --> 00:14:33,714 and my brother got just as much right to speak as you. 180 00:14:33,786 --> 00:14:36,755 So what you doin' arrogantly gaveling us down? 181 00:14:36,822 --> 00:14:39,518 - This is not a forum for your political views. - What is it? 182 00:14:39,592 --> 00:14:43,050 - Do you understand that? - Do you understand that I was brought here... 183 00:14:43,129 --> 00:14:45,962 because of my beliefs, because of my views? 184 00:14:46,032 --> 00:14:48,967 I object. I think the witness, at this point, 185 00:14:49,035 --> 00:14:51,265 is badgering the judge. 186 00:14:52,205 --> 00:14:55,368 They were, in fact, telling the truth in the courtroom, 187 00:14:55,441 --> 00:14:57,739 and because the judge could not dispute it, 188 00:14:57,810 --> 00:15:02,372 because the judge had went to Harvard and Yale and Cornell... 189 00:15:02,448 --> 00:15:05,611 to learn what law was. 190 00:15:05,685 --> 00:15:08,813 They could not understand how a people could stand there, 191 00:15:08,888 --> 00:15:13,257 looking as they did, but yet knowing more, in fact, than they did. 192 00:15:13,326 --> 00:15:19,128 And this called for many contempts, many beatings in the courtroom. 193 00:15:19,198 --> 00:15:22,497 And it was like a repeat over and over again. 194 00:15:24,470 --> 00:15:30,898 Officer Cresse, directing your attention to approximately March 30 of 1976, 195 00:15:30,977 --> 00:15:34,777 what, if anything occurred during that time period with regard to MOVE. 196 00:15:35,815 --> 00:15:39,751 Twenty-four-hour surveillance was established at the MOVE compound... 197 00:15:39,819 --> 00:15:42,083 at 309 North 33rd Street. 198 00:15:42,154 --> 00:15:46,648 Around the same time, was there any, um, 199 00:15:46,726 --> 00:15:49,695 situation that arose with regard to an infant? 200 00:15:49,762 --> 00:15:51,696 Yes, sir. Could you describe that, sir? 201 00:15:51,764 --> 00:15:52,753 Okay. 202 00:15:59,572 --> 00:16:01,506 Just bear with me, please. 203 00:16:14,587 --> 00:16:18,455 On March 28 of this year, at about 4:00 in the morning, 204 00:16:18,524 --> 00:16:22,893 some MOVE members were returning from one of many sentences in the city jail. 205 00:16:22,962 --> 00:16:25,294 The MOVE people say they weren't making a lot of noise. 206 00:16:25,364 --> 00:16:27,855 But someone in the neighborhood complained to the police. 207 00:16:28,734 --> 00:16:30,838 What happened next is the beginning of a 208 00:16:30,851 --> 00:16:32,966 controversy that has yet to be investigated. 209 00:16:33,706 --> 00:16:36,072 Somehow an argument led to a scuffle. 210 00:16:36,142 --> 00:16:38,702 Police reinforcements were quickly on the scene, 211 00:16:38,778 --> 00:16:41,076 and MOVE put up resistance. 212 00:16:41,147 --> 00:16:44,139 By the time it was over, six policemen reported injuries, 213 00:16:44,216 --> 00:16:46,116 six members of MOVE were arrested, 214 00:16:46,185 --> 00:16:48,983 and later, it was found that three-week-old Life Africa, 215 00:16:49,055 --> 00:16:51,285 one of the MOVE babies, was dead. 216 00:16:59,999 --> 00:17:03,162 We went upstairs to inquire reporters there. 217 00:17:03,836 --> 00:17:07,033 And we saw- We were led into a dark room, 218 00:17:07,106 --> 00:17:11,372 and we saw what appeared to be the remains of a baby. 219 00:17:12,378 --> 00:17:15,279 And it was their contention that this baby had been killed... 220 00:17:15,348 --> 00:17:16,872 in a police raid. 221 00:17:18,050 --> 00:17:22,612 Subsequent to that, I introduced the resolution to the city council, 222 00:17:22,688 --> 00:17:24,622 calling for an investigation. 223 00:17:24,690 --> 00:17:30,287 It never took place and I felt at that time that the MOVE people were being harassed... 224 00:17:30,363 --> 00:17:32,354 and that it was a racial problem. 225 00:17:33,699 --> 00:17:37,396 Shortly thereafter, I received some letters... 226 00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:40,664 from the people who live on 32nd and Pearl Street. 227 00:17:41,874 --> 00:17:43,995 And they indicated that they were displeased 228 00:17:44,008 --> 00:17:46,140 with MOVE, and they wanted to meet me. 229 00:17:47,246 --> 00:17:49,714 And I went to the meeting expecting to see... 230 00:17:53,352 --> 00:17:57,311 mostly Caucasian people complaining about MOVE. 231 00:17:57,390 --> 00:18:00,951 And I was surprised when I entered the home... 232 00:18:01,026 --> 00:18:06,157 that most of the people there were-were black people, just ordinary black people. 233 00:18:07,032 --> 00:18:11,765 And for the first time I realized that it was not a racial problem with MOVE. 234 00:18:11,837 --> 00:18:16,672 But that it was something else that I just did not understand. 235 00:18:16,742 --> 00:18:22,044 And then I learned that unless you did everything that they wanted you to do, 236 00:18:23,315 --> 00:18:25,613 uh, you were an enemy. 237 00:18:35,594 --> 00:18:39,360 On May 20, 1977, MOVE brandished weapons... 238 00:18:39,432 --> 00:18:41,764 from their Powelton Village headquarters platform... 239 00:18:41,834 --> 00:18:45,099 saying, "No longer will we be beaten or intimidated by the police... 240 00:18:45,171 --> 00:18:47,105 without a like response." 241 00:18:50,309 --> 00:18:52,118 To your knowledge, did any of the members of the 242 00:18:52,131 --> 00:18:53,950 MOVE organization ever possess any weapons? 243 00:18:55,347 --> 00:18:57,338 - Not to my knowledge. - Nor mine. 244 00:18:57,416 --> 00:19:01,182 Have you ever seen the pictures of May 20, 1977, at Powelton Village, 245 00:19:01,253 --> 00:19:03,188 where people are carrying what appear, at least, to be weapons? 246 00:19:03,213 --> 00:19:04,255 Yes, I have. 247 00:19:04,256 --> 00:19:05,541 Were those members of the MOVE organization? 248 00:19:05,554 --> 00:19:06,850 Yes, they were. 249 00:19:06,926 --> 00:19:08,621 Were they weapons? I don't know. 250 00:19:10,129 --> 00:19:12,962 I don't want anyone to think that I'm insulting their intelligence, 251 00:19:13,032 --> 00:19:16,991 but when you have anything like that, 252 00:19:17,069 --> 00:19:20,095 regardless to what it looks like, 253 00:19:20,172 --> 00:19:23,243 if it is found inside of the house or not found 254 00:19:23,256 --> 00:19:26,338 inside the house and it is brought out... 255 00:19:26,412 --> 00:19:29,108 and it is found to be inoperable, 256 00:19:29,181 --> 00:19:31,115 it is found not to work at all, 257 00:19:31,183 --> 00:19:35,552 as far as I'm concerned, it's not a weapon. 258 00:19:35,621 --> 00:19:37,816 But let me be clear. 259 00:19:37,890 --> 00:19:40,154 This can be a weapon. 260 00:19:40,226 --> 00:19:44,822 But I'm talking about to the point of a weapon that can fire. 261 00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:50,030 It's just like you said. What appeared to be weapons. 262 00:20:11,457 --> 00:20:15,018 In my view, it seemed to suggest a turning point. 263 00:20:15,094 --> 00:20:18,029 It was the point which it became clear... 264 00:20:18,097 --> 00:20:23,262 that MOVE, in fact, could become a violent organization. 265 00:20:23,335 --> 00:20:26,702 Uh, would, in fact, fight, 266 00:20:26,772 --> 00:20:30,936 would, in fact, use weapons in order to accomplish their mission. 267 00:20:32,611 --> 00:20:37,378 They named the game. And I assure you, they lose. 268 00:20:37,449 --> 00:20:38,939 We'll do what's necessary. 269 00:20:39,018 --> 00:20:41,043 - What is that? - The strategy of John Africa. 270 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:42,815 - What is that? - Our only defense. 271 00:20:42,888 --> 00:20:45,220 - What is that? - The strategy of John Africa. 272 00:20:45,291 --> 00:20:47,885 You aren't tellin' me anything. You're just saying "the strategy of John Africa." 273 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,987 Hey, I wouldn't tell my strategy to you. 274 00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:07,231 We ain't talkin' about hurtin' nobody's religion. 275 00:21:07,244 --> 00:21:09,376 We ain't talkin' about killin' off nobody's religion. 276 00:21:09,448 --> 00:21:11,473 Rizzo is talkin' about religious persecution. 277 00:21:11,550 --> 00:21:13,353 Don't question the person tellin' the truth. 278 00:21:13,366 --> 00:21:15,179 Question the person that's tellin' the lie. 279 00:21:15,254 --> 00:21:16,585 All right! 280 00:21:25,431 --> 00:21:29,333 Only in a democracy could they get away with what they're getting away with. 281 00:21:56,362 --> 00:21:58,887 People are people regardless of their color, their skin, 282 00:21:58,964 --> 00:22:00,488 their religion, their race or nothin'. 283 00:22:00,566 --> 00:22:03,057 They're still people. They can bleed. They can die. 284 00:22:03,135 --> 00:22:06,070 They can catch diseases. We can all go through the same situations. 285 00:22:06,138 --> 00:22:10,632 It's unnecessary for all of that. I really think it's unnecessary. 286 00:22:13,512 --> 00:22:15,633 And it's all going to boil down to a bunch of 287 00:22:15,646 --> 00:22:17,778 people getting hurt and killed over nothin'. 288 00:22:17,850 --> 00:22:20,216 Over nothin' that doesn't really make any sense. 289 00:22:24,790 --> 00:22:29,022 At 6:10 a.m., Mayor Rizzo finally, after 15 months of confrontation, 290 00:22:29,094 --> 00:22:31,654 used the force he threatened all along. 291 00:22:31,730 --> 00:22:35,097 The police will be in there to drag them out by the backs of their necks. 292 00:22:35,167 --> 00:22:39,570 They're going to be taken by force if they resist. 293 00:22:39,638 --> 00:22:42,004 If police come in there with their hands, we'll use our hands. 294 00:22:42,074 --> 00:22:44,736 If they come in here with clubs, we'll use clubs. 295 00:22:44,810 --> 00:22:47,836 But if they come in here shootin' and killin' our women and children and our men, 296 00:22:47,913 --> 00:22:50,609 we will shoot back in defense of our lives. 297 00:22:50,683 --> 00:22:55,177 I've learned one thing as a policeman. You never underestimate your opponent. 298 00:22:55,254 --> 00:23:00,920 You always get in there faster with more than is necessary, and you overpower them. 299 00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:20,239 Stakeout personnel, using body shields, 300 00:23:20,312 --> 00:23:26,376 cover fireman as they position a portable deluge gun closer to the compound. 301 00:23:38,964 --> 00:23:40,898 Shots have been fired! 302 00:23:40,966 --> 00:23:44,402 Officers and firemen are wounded by gunfire. 303 00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:47,598 First deluge gun goes out of control. 304 00:23:53,746 --> 00:23:58,115 Other officers and firemen move in to pull the wounded personnel... 305 00:23:58,183 --> 00:24:00,378 out of the line of fire. 306 00:24:01,253 --> 00:24:04,222 Officer Ramp, shown here lying on his back, 307 00:24:04,289 --> 00:24:06,655 has now been mortally wounded. 308 00:24:06,725 --> 00:24:08,659 Officer Hesson, also wounded, 309 00:24:08,727 --> 00:24:11,924 crawls over and attempts to shield officer Ramp. 310 00:24:41,627 --> 00:24:44,619 Mr. Rendell, um, 311 00:24:44,696 --> 00:24:48,223 did you consider the MOVE organization to be a terrorist group? 312 00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:51,827 They had demonstrated a past history of violence. 313 00:24:51,904 --> 00:24:56,932 Uh, they had demonstrated a willingness to use violence, force... 314 00:24:57,009 --> 00:25:01,105 or the threat of violence or force to achieve their objectives. 315 00:25:01,180 --> 00:25:04,775 It was almost difficult, if not well nigh impossible, 316 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:07,148 to deal with them in any rational basis... 317 00:25:07,219 --> 00:25:10,108 that their stated goals as a group that was a 318 00:25:10,121 --> 00:25:13,021 back-to-nature group were, frankly, a bunch of bull. 319 00:25:14,293 --> 00:25:17,319 People who have killed one person, 320 00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:20,957 injured several others, people who threaten to blow up people's houses, 321 00:25:21,033 --> 00:25:24,992 people who threaten to shoot and kill neighbors, police, elected officials- 322 00:25:25,070 --> 00:25:29,166 I think that's a pretty adequate description of the word "terrorist." 323 00:26:05,577 --> 00:26:09,240 With every step of the way, including the final act today, 324 00:26:09,314 --> 00:26:14,013 the police used commendable restraint, uh, and it was done for many reasons. 325 00:26:14,086 --> 00:26:17,214 Most of all because of the children who are present today. 326 00:26:17,289 --> 00:26:20,156 There had been much concern on the part of many people... 327 00:26:20,225 --> 00:26:23,820 that the police would make a violent assault on the MOVE members. 328 00:26:23,896 --> 00:26:27,332 As it turned out, the police acted with precision and restraint. 329 00:26:27,399 --> 00:26:29,572 When one of the MOVE members came out of the 330 00:26:29,585 --> 00:26:31,768 window with a cartridge case in one hand, 331 00:26:31,837 --> 00:26:34,431 a clip and with a knife in the other, 332 00:26:34,506 --> 00:26:37,441 he was hit on the top of the head with a steel helmet... 333 00:26:37,509 --> 00:26:39,443 and was taken into custody. 334 00:26:39,511 --> 00:26:41,604 That's what you're referring to. 335 00:26:50,923 --> 00:26:53,016 He's hittin' him. He's hittin' him. 336 00:26:53,091 --> 00:26:55,753 Hittin' him on the head. Kickin' him on the head! 337 00:26:58,063 --> 00:27:00,031 I have no idea. I couldn't see. 338 00:27:00,098 --> 00:27:03,261 - Cops, you're makin' a mistake doin' that. - Your ass they are. 339 00:27:05,704 --> 00:27:09,697 The police probably would have been legally within their rights... 340 00:27:09,775 --> 00:27:12,938 to have killed all of the 12 people in that basement. 341 00:27:14,313 --> 00:27:16,781 Do you believe this is a symbolic gesture, 342 00:27:16,848 --> 00:27:20,443 tearing their house down at this point, the very day of the shootout? 343 00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:23,454 I think behind it is the question we gotta ask is why. 344 00:27:33,098 --> 00:27:37,467 There's a suspicion that some shots had come from elsewhere. 345 00:27:37,536 --> 00:27:40,038 Walt Hunter from WCAU, by the way, swears that 346 00:27:40,051 --> 00:27:42,564 a shot was fired going in this direction. 347 00:27:52,517 --> 00:27:55,782 People who know us know that we're not terrorists. 348 00:27:55,854 --> 00:28:00,052 We fight cops because they're dirty. They're filthy. They're criminal. 349 00:28:01,093 --> 00:28:05,757 The sad part of it is that this incident is not yet over. 350 00:28:05,831 --> 00:28:09,392 There will still be misguided voices in the community... 351 00:28:10,469 --> 00:28:12,960 seeking clemency for these criminals. 352 00:28:13,038 --> 00:28:16,030 Long live MOVE! Long live revolution! 353 00:28:16,108 --> 00:28:20,602 Long live John Africa! it's the MOVE organization. 354 00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:42,596 What they should have done is shot that goddamn bum, 355 00:28:42,667 --> 00:28:45,067 and then there would have been no trouble today. 356 00:28:50,509 --> 00:28:54,070 This police department in Philadelphia could invade Cuba and win. 357 00:28:54,646 --> 00:29:00,551 What I'm saying, Tom Snyder, is that we are now trained and equipped to fight wars. 358 00:29:00,619 --> 00:29:05,852 Four more years, hell no! No more Rizzo! Got to go! 359 00:29:05,924 --> 00:29:10,691 Four more years, hell no! No more Rizzo! Got to go! 360 00:29:10,762 --> 00:29:13,094 Four more years, hell no! 361 00:29:19,371 --> 00:29:26,243 All of us, from all neighborhoods, from all walks of life... 362 00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:30,776 can solve the problem facing our city. 363 00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:45,593 Leapheart was asked how he felt when the verdict was read. 364 00:29:49,167 --> 00:29:51,590 What are your plans in terms of staying in 365 00:29:51,603 --> 00:29:54,036 Philadelphia and trying to continue the MOVE cult? 366 00:29:54,106 --> 00:29:56,438 It's not a cult. It's an organization. 367 00:30:08,453 --> 00:30:11,945 When you appear to be different... 368 00:30:12,757 --> 00:30:15,123 you become angry, 369 00:30:15,193 --> 00:30:19,027 and you will do things out of the norm. 370 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:44,577 Did you ever think about leaving MOVE? 371 00:30:45,991 --> 00:30:47,151 Yeah. 372 00:30:47,225 --> 00:30:50,592 - Uh, when was that? - A long time ago. 373 00:30:50,662 --> 00:30:53,756 A long time ago? Why did you want to leave MOVE? 374 00:30:59,804 --> 00:31:02,932 'Cause we couldn't do what other kids do. 375 00:31:03,008 --> 00:31:05,568 You couldn't do what the other kids did? 376 00:31:07,345 --> 00:31:10,166 Uh, what were the other children allowed to do 377 00:31:10,179 --> 00:31:13,011 who were outside of MOVE that you couldn't do? 378 00:31:13,084 --> 00:31:17,350 Uh, play with toys and stuff and ride bikes and watch TV. 379 00:31:18,924 --> 00:31:21,916 Did you tell anyone that you wanted to leave? 380 00:31:23,428 --> 00:31:25,055 Who'd you tell? 381 00:31:25,130 --> 00:31:28,793 Oh, we told- We told each other. 382 00:31:50,121 --> 00:31:52,055 This is a blue-collar neighborhood. 383 00:31:53,358 --> 00:31:59,354 And any given summer day you have the children, 384 00:31:59,431 --> 00:32:01,899 uh, playing in the streets. 385 00:32:03,368 --> 00:32:08,533 You have a mother maybe sitting on the steps. 386 00:32:10,075 --> 00:32:11,565 Neighbors talking to each other. 387 00:32:13,178 --> 00:32:17,308 And all of a sudden on their loudspeaker, 388 00:32:17,382 --> 00:32:21,079 you'd hear a voice would come out and say, 389 00:32:21,152 --> 00:32:24,849 "You motherfuckers. What the fuck are you doin' out here now?" 390 00:32:26,024 --> 00:32:28,083 Do you know what's going on here? 391 00:32:28,159 --> 00:32:33,153 You son of a bitches around here fuckin' everybody up. 392 00:32:33,231 --> 00:32:34,823 "What the fuck is goin' on?" 393 00:32:37,068 --> 00:32:41,334 Anything that was vile, they would go into it. 394 00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:55,010 The filth-it was-it was... 395 00:32:55,086 --> 00:33:00,080 unbelievable that something like this could be in someone's mind. 396 00:33:01,192 --> 00:33:03,786 It's one thing to be two blocks away and hear it. 397 00:33:03,862 --> 00:33:09,528 But to live right next door, full blast in our bedroom. 398 00:33:09,601 --> 00:33:12,798 I watched my wife many nights lay there in that bed and cry. 399 00:33:12,871 --> 00:33:14,805 Wasn't nothin' else she could do. 400 00:33:14,873 --> 00:33:18,036 I think that, uh, what we really hoped for... 401 00:33:18,109 --> 00:33:20,043 was that some kind of way... 402 00:33:20,111 --> 00:33:23,774 the city would find a way to deal with the situation. 403 00:33:30,121 --> 00:33:35,923 The only thing that was happening is that MOVE was taking a stand... 404 00:33:35,994 --> 00:33:40,397 against the injustice that has been dropped on them... 405 00:33:40,465 --> 00:33:45,164 by this administration and the Rizzo administration. 406 00:33:45,236 --> 00:33:49,297 MOVE'S principle has never changed. 407 00:33:50,508 --> 00:33:55,207 MOVE'S mood, I'm talking about bitterness now, 408 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,770 did change. 409 00:34:00,285 --> 00:34:04,346 They made, in my view, a conscious decision... 410 00:34:05,323 --> 00:34:11,228 to aggravate residents to the point was that the residents would, in fact, 411 00:34:11,296 --> 00:34:15,960 demand for the city to take actions to provide them with relief. 412 00:34:16,868 --> 00:34:20,634 And in that regard, the city would be forced into doing one of two things, 413 00:34:21,906 --> 00:34:25,672 to engage in confrontation or to engage in compromise. 414 00:34:27,011 --> 00:34:30,071 There was a lot of hostility between those two entities. 415 00:34:30,148 --> 00:34:33,049 I think it must be researched why the hostility was there. 416 00:34:33,118 --> 00:34:35,052 Which two entities, Mr. Bond? 417 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,452 Uh, the city of Philadelphia and the MOVE organization. 418 00:34:37,522 --> 00:34:40,582 And as a pawn, we were caught in-between. 419 00:34:40,658 --> 00:34:43,252 And nobody, frankly, gave a damn. 420 00:34:54,005 --> 00:34:59,238 I met with 15 residents, uh, of Osage Avenue... 421 00:34:59,310 --> 00:35:02,746 on Memorial Day, 1984. 422 00:35:03,815 --> 00:35:05,942 At that meeting, I said to them... 423 00:35:06,017 --> 00:35:11,683 that I will research as to whether or not there is a legal basis, 424 00:35:12,524 --> 00:35:18,087 uh, for the city to do something about the problem that you have brought to us. 425 00:35:19,097 --> 00:35:21,497 But also pointed out to them... 426 00:35:21,566 --> 00:35:24,535 that the mayor does not have the authority... 427 00:35:24,602 --> 00:35:29,039 because he does not like, or the neighbors do not like, 428 00:35:29,107 --> 00:35:31,598 the way someone live... 429 00:35:31,676 --> 00:35:34,167 to simply go in and evict the people from their house. 430 00:35:34,245 --> 00:35:38,147 We don't have those kinds of options in this democracy. 431 00:35:43,455 --> 00:35:46,891 Today, more than three dozen Philadelphia policemen surrounded the building... 432 00:35:46,958 --> 00:35:49,381 after a MOVE member was spotted on the roof 433 00:35:49,394 --> 00:35:51,827 wearing a hooded mask and carrying a shotgun. 434 00:35:51,896 --> 00:35:53,989 That standoff lasted less than two hours. 435 00:35:54,065 --> 00:35:57,057 Police did not enter the house, and no arrests were made. 436 00:35:57,135 --> 00:35:59,154 In the last several weeks, their actions have 437 00:35:59,167 --> 00:36:01,196 escalated tensions in the neighborhood... 438 00:36:01,272 --> 00:36:03,900 leading to tonight's situation. 439 00:36:04,476 --> 00:36:07,877 When the individual was on the roof with the mask and the shotgun, 440 00:36:07,946 --> 00:36:10,540 my daughter was in our picture window. 441 00:36:11,216 --> 00:36:15,516 And she said, "Daddy, what is the man doing on top of the roof with a gun?" 442 00:36:18,890 --> 00:36:21,256 And I didn't have an answer. 443 00:36:22,460 --> 00:36:24,394 She asked, "isn't that against the law?" 444 00:36:25,997 --> 00:36:27,931 And I said yes. 445 00:36:30,235 --> 00:36:32,942 Well, I don't know how you can say that for 446 00:36:32,955 --> 00:36:35,673 a certain group of people, the law applies... 447 00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:38,573 and then another group of people, that same law doesn't apply. 448 00:36:39,744 --> 00:36:43,680 I think we were in the law on an equal basis, if I'm correct. 449 00:36:46,818 --> 00:36:51,881 You would see them dragging logs from the park up the street. 450 00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:55,392 You could see that the line in the street... 451 00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:59,521 from, I guess, the oil out of the trees that they would drag up. 452 00:36:59,597 --> 00:37:05,035 Wood would be stacked up in front of the house at 6221. 453 00:37:05,103 --> 00:37:10,871 There was so much of it that we requested that they... 454 00:37:10,942 --> 00:37:12,204 do something with it. 455 00:37:12,277 --> 00:37:14,302 What was the response to that request? 456 00:37:14,379 --> 00:37:18,440 They responded and put it on top of the roof. 457 00:37:23,788 --> 00:37:27,280 - We used to play on the roof. - You used to play on the roof a lot? 458 00:37:27,358 --> 00:37:29,952 A lot of times. 459 00:37:30,028 --> 00:37:33,964 - Now, you said something about a bunker. - Mm-hmm. 460 00:37:34,032 --> 00:37:36,933 How many bunkers were there on the roof? 461 00:37:37,001 --> 00:37:38,491 - Two. - Two? 462 00:37:38,570 --> 00:37:41,937 And do you know what they were made of? 463 00:37:51,115 --> 00:37:53,310 What kind of holes did they have in the bunkers? 464 00:37:53,384 --> 00:37:58,344 Like the bunker was halfway over the roof like this, and you could look down. 465 00:37:58,423 --> 00:38:01,824 You could see up the street in the-all over. 466 00:38:02,660 --> 00:38:04,150 Do you know what those holes were for? 467 00:38:23,915 --> 00:38:29,444 That bunker you see there is kind of a toyish-looking thing, 468 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,890 and I will tell you on Osage Avenue, it commanded the scene. 469 00:38:35,827 --> 00:38:39,456 It overlooked and overpowered anything you may-you can imagine. 470 00:38:39,530 --> 00:38:41,464 It was awesome. 471 00:38:42,433 --> 00:38:45,197 There's been talk that there are explosives in this house. 472 00:38:45,269 --> 00:38:47,533 Uh, is there any truth to that? 473 00:38:47,605 --> 00:38:50,472 That's only people's, you know, hallucination... 474 00:38:50,541 --> 00:38:52,338 because they have not been inside this house. 475 00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:54,344 So they would not know what is in this house. 476 00:38:54,412 --> 00:38:58,940 What is in this house is the strategy of John Africa that is very explosive. 477 00:38:59,917 --> 00:39:02,943 Is it a confrontation? It most certainly is a confrontation, 478 00:39:03,021 --> 00:39:06,923 one strategized by John Africa years and years and years ago. 479 00:39:10,395 --> 00:39:13,592 Commissioner, could you tell us what the lessons were... 480 00:39:13,665 --> 00:39:18,693 that you felt were learned in the 1978 confrontation from your point of view? 481 00:39:18,770 --> 00:39:25,175 From my point of view, sir, was that MOVE was a group... 482 00:39:25,243 --> 00:39:30,146 who was bent by virtue of their dogma and by their actions... 483 00:39:30,214 --> 00:39:35,618 of destroying civilized activity... 484 00:39:35,687 --> 00:39:39,521 and ability to live in a neighborhood peacefully. 485 00:39:41,726 --> 00:39:45,389 Tonight, there are growing concerns about the controversial group, MOVE. 486 00:39:45,463 --> 00:39:48,728 City officials met today for the second straight day to discuss strategy. 487 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,463 Sources reveal that Philadelphia's District Attorney has now prepared the warrants... 488 00:39:52,537 --> 00:39:56,132 that are legally necessary to evict MOVE members from their home. 489 00:39:56,207 --> 00:39:58,402 Once those warrants are signed by a judge, 490 00:39:58,476 --> 00:40:02,879 action by police to evict MOVE could come at pretty much any time. 491 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,054 Do you know a police officer by the name of Delores Thompson? 492 00:40:20,131 --> 00:40:21,621 Yes, I do. 493 00:40:22,133 --> 00:40:26,160 Do you recall telling her that your son Frank was ordered to attack you, 494 00:40:26,871 --> 00:40:30,034 that you were beaten until you started to vomit violently, 495 00:40:30,108 --> 00:40:32,668 that Frank then placed a pillow over your face... 496 00:40:32,744 --> 00:40:37,306 and asked John Africa if he wanted you to be cycled or killed... 497 00:40:37,381 --> 00:40:40,839 and that John Africa replied, "Not at this time?" 498 00:40:40,918 --> 00:40:42,783 Did she tell you that I said that? 499 00:40:42,854 --> 00:40:46,620 - I have her report of that conversation, Mrs. James. - Okay. 500 00:40:46,691 --> 00:40:49,091 Well, if she-Were you satisfied with what she said? 501 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,594 - I'm asking you. - Okay. 502 00:40:51,662 --> 00:40:54,460 I heard rumors to the effect that my son had beaten me. 503 00:40:54,532 --> 00:40:56,767 I've also heard rumors to the effect that 504 00:40:56,780 --> 00:40:59,026 Wilson Goode put his wife's jaw on a pulley, 505 00:40:59,103 --> 00:41:00,730 that he beat the hell out of her. 506 00:41:00,805 --> 00:41:04,741 Will you ask Mayor Goode that when he comes in here if he in fact beat his wife? 507 00:41:04,809 --> 00:41:06,640 And if not, why not? 508 00:41:06,711 --> 00:41:11,171 If it is relevant that my son beat me or whether or not he did beat me, 509 00:41:11,249 --> 00:41:13,370 then I would say it is just as relevant for you 510 00:41:13,383 --> 00:41:15,515 to ask Wilson Goode when he comes in here, 511 00:41:15,586 --> 00:41:16,917 "Did he beat his wife?" 512 00:41:16,988 --> 00:41:19,013 I don't think you're gonna ask him that. 513 00:41:19,090 --> 00:41:24,357 I really don't. But you should, if you feel that it is relevant. 514 00:41:28,666 --> 00:41:33,865 Mr. Lytton, I just want to make it clear in my mind so that I understand. 515 00:41:33,938 --> 00:41:38,375 Am I to assume that the bomb was dropped on MOVE people... 516 00:41:38,442 --> 00:41:41,206 because Frank beat his mother? 517 00:41:41,279 --> 00:41:42,746 Ma'am, we're trying to find out what happened, 518 00:41:42,814 --> 00:41:45,647 - and we'll continue asking questions. - Oh. Okay. 519 00:42:07,038 --> 00:42:09,336 Of course, on Mother's Day, the evacuation has been slow. 520 00:42:09,407 --> 00:42:10,897 People had plans for today. 521 00:42:10,975 --> 00:42:14,274 A few had decided that they'd stay and not evacuate. 522 00:42:14,345 --> 00:42:16,614 But police have now apparently advised those 523 00:42:16,627 --> 00:42:18,907 people that they think it's best that they leave. 524 00:42:18,983 --> 00:42:23,113 I hope that it's resolved quickly... 525 00:42:23,187 --> 00:42:26,147 and have all confidence that the mayor's going to be doing the right thing. 526 00:42:26,190 --> 00:42:29,353 I wouldn't mind staying myself, you see. 527 00:42:29,427 --> 00:42:30,826 But I was told to leave... 528 00:42:30,895 --> 00:42:34,194 just 'cause he don't know what the extent of this is going to be, you know. 529 00:42:34,265 --> 00:42:35,562 What do you think? 530 00:42:35,633 --> 00:42:40,593 I think-Believe it or not, I think you'll have to kill all of them. 531 00:42:41,439 --> 00:42:46,035 And neighbors have been told by police not to return to their homes for 24 hours. 532 00:42:46,110 --> 00:42:48,169 That is 22:00 tomorrow night. 533 00:42:48,246 --> 00:42:52,012 Now, what will happen between now and then remains to be seen, Charles. 534 00:42:52,083 --> 00:42:54,984 And, Casey, some of the neighbors, as they were leaving, said to me... 535 00:42:55,052 --> 00:42:57,020 that as they were going, leaving the neighborhood, 536 00:42:57,088 --> 00:42:59,488 the MOVE people were sitting out in front of the MOVE house, 537 00:42:59,557 --> 00:43:01,115 the children in hand. 538 00:43:01,192 --> 00:43:06,095 Perhaps that was a subtle or not-so-subtle indication of what's happening here. 539 00:43:06,998 --> 00:43:10,195 Did you consider, sir, that at least in 1978, 540 00:43:10,268 --> 00:43:14,295 the members of the MOVE organization who were at the Powelton Village house... 541 00:43:14,372 --> 00:43:19,901 had used their children, uh, as if they were hostages? 542 00:43:19,977 --> 00:43:21,706 No, sir, I did not. 543 00:43:21,779 --> 00:43:25,010 You've said they came out holding their children up as shields. 544 00:43:25,082 --> 00:43:27,312 Uh, I'm not an expert in police science, 545 00:43:27,385 --> 00:43:29,785 but I think to the layman, 546 00:43:29,854 --> 00:43:32,721 that might suggest that they were using their children as a hostage. 547 00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:35,987 That's why I'm asking you why you did not consider that. 548 00:43:36,060 --> 00:43:39,757 They were using them simply as a ploy... 549 00:43:40,598 --> 00:43:43,897 and using that philosophy, 550 00:43:43,968 --> 00:43:47,699 that feeling that we had for the sanctity of children... 551 00:43:47,772 --> 00:43:51,572 and everyone else, to our disadvantage. 552 00:43:54,045 --> 00:43:57,606 I do not want to wake up tomorrow morning and find myself short one son... 553 00:43:57,682 --> 00:44:00,088 because if this thing kicks off, you're going 554 00:44:00,101 --> 00:44:02,517 to have bodies strewn every which way. 555 00:44:02,586 --> 00:44:06,215 You're going to have children killed, and you're going to have adults killed. 556 00:44:06,290 --> 00:44:11,227 I am very much afraid you're going to have blood-soaked streets. 557 00:44:11,729 --> 00:44:15,665 Every one of us knew that there was an extraordinarily high likelihood... 558 00:44:15,733 --> 00:44:17,223 that someone was going to die. 559 00:44:17,301 --> 00:44:19,701 We didn't know whether it was going to be a policeman. 560 00:44:19,770 --> 00:44:21,533 We didn't know whether it was going to be a fireman. 561 00:44:21,605 --> 00:44:23,806 We didn't know whether it was going to be a MOVE member. 562 00:44:23,874 --> 00:44:26,280 The worse dread of all was that it was going 563 00:44:26,293 --> 00:44:28,709 to be a child or a neighbor or a bystander. 564 00:44:29,780 --> 00:44:33,307 I don't know if anyone on this panel has ever had the responsibility... 565 00:44:33,384 --> 00:44:38,447 of saying "go" to a plan that you know is going to cost human lives. 566 00:44:38,522 --> 00:44:41,616 Until you've done that, it's very difficult to gauge... 567 00:44:41,692 --> 00:44:44,820 whether the city officials were right or wrong in what they did. 568 00:44:46,097 --> 00:44:51,160 Did you all have meetings where you would discuss what to do if the police came? 569 00:44:51,836 --> 00:44:54,737 Mm-mmm. Not us. 570 00:44:54,805 --> 00:44:57,672 Not the children? How about the adults? 571 00:44:57,742 --> 00:44:59,733 How about the grown-ups? 572 00:44:59,810 --> 00:45:03,143 They were to be upstairs by their self when they had their meetings. 573 00:45:03,214 --> 00:45:05,148 When they had their meetings? 574 00:45:05,216 --> 00:45:07,548 How often would they have their meetings? 575 00:45:07,618 --> 00:45:09,813 - A lot of times. - A lot of times? 576 00:45:09,887 --> 00:45:14,847 Did you ever sit in on-Were you ever in any of their meetings? 577 00:45:14,925 --> 00:45:17,587 Do you ever know what went on in those meetings? 578 00:45:17,661 --> 00:45:19,128 Mm-mmm. 579 00:45:20,164 --> 00:45:22,530 What is a confrontation? Do you know? 580 00:45:23,434 --> 00:45:24,731 Like it was. 581 00:45:24,802 --> 00:45:27,362 But what happens when you have a confrontation? 582 00:45:27,438 --> 00:45:29,736 When the cops come and stuff. 583 00:45:57,535 --> 00:46:02,199 What did you believe they might have had by way of firearms in that house? 584 00:46:02,273 --> 00:46:05,333 We were led to believe that they had automatic firearms. 585 00:46:07,445 --> 00:46:09,140 Shotguns. 586 00:46:09,213 --> 00:46:11,374 I guess just as well as equipped as we were. 587 00:46:11,449 --> 00:46:13,349 Mm-hmm. 588 00:46:13,417 --> 00:46:19,185 And so based on what you believed they had, then you went prepared to match? 589 00:46:19,890 --> 00:46:23,417 - To match or better than. - Or to have superior? 590 00:46:23,494 --> 00:46:25,223 That's correct, sir. 591 00:46:27,565 --> 00:46:30,432 We interrupt regular programming for this special report. 592 00:46:30,501 --> 00:46:33,959 I'm Dennis Woltering with Harvey Clarke at 62nd and Vine... 593 00:46:34,038 --> 00:46:37,024 where authorities continue preparations for an 594 00:46:37,037 --> 00:46:40,034 apparent confrontation with the radical group, MOVE. 595 00:46:40,111 --> 00:46:42,443 Let me tell you what's happened so far this morning. 596 00:46:42,513 --> 00:46:45,311 About two hours ago, 3:30 a.m., 597 00:46:45,382 --> 00:46:48,818 utility crews moved into the area, shut off gas and electricity. 598 00:46:48,886 --> 00:46:52,014 SWAT teams have been converging on the area. 599 00:46:52,089 --> 00:46:56,492 You can see a fire truck behind me with a deluge gun pointed back that way. 600 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,687 It's aimed, apparently, at the MOVE house. 601 00:46:58,762 --> 00:47:00,992 It looks like the scene is set. 602 00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:18,045 I got on my stomach, 603 00:47:18,115 --> 00:47:21,778 and with the bullhorn, I read the message. 604 00:47:21,852 --> 00:47:24,878 And to be quite frank, I was sweating it out. 605 00:47:25,756 --> 00:47:27,917 What did Commissioner Sambor say, do you know? 606 00:47:27,992 --> 00:47:30,017 He was telling them to come out. 607 00:47:30,094 --> 00:47:32,221 Did you hear him saying that? 608 00:47:42,907 --> 00:47:45,842 What was the response of the MOVE organization... 609 00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:48,845 when you read the arrest warrant that they vacate the premises? 610 00:47:48,913 --> 00:47:51,347 That they would not surrender. 611 00:47:51,415 --> 00:47:54,748 - Can you tell us what else they said? - That they would kill us all. 612 00:47:54,818 --> 00:47:56,342 And what else did they say? 613 00:47:56,420 --> 00:47:59,981 Uh, they said that, uh, 614 00:48:00,057 --> 00:48:02,525 that all of our wives would be widows. 615 00:48:02,593 --> 00:48:05,187 And what else did they say about your wives? 616 00:48:06,764 --> 00:48:12,896 They said that our wives would be sleeping with other men before the end of the day. 617 00:48:12,970 --> 00:48:15,666 - Did they describe what other kind of men? - Yes, sir. 618 00:48:15,739 --> 00:48:17,229 Would you tell us? 619 00:48:17,308 --> 00:48:21,972 They said that our wives would be sleeping with black men before the end of the day. 620 00:48:22,046 --> 00:48:25,277 Do you recall what your reaction was to those statements? 621 00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:30,685 I accepted it, sir, as some of their rhetoric... 622 00:48:30,754 --> 00:48:36,158 and attempts to incite the police and myself to precipitous action. 623 00:48:51,775 --> 00:48:54,300 The police went in about five minutes to 6:00. 624 00:48:54,378 --> 00:48:56,346 Just four minutes ago, they pumped tear gas in... 625 00:48:56,413 --> 00:48:58,313 which ls in the area. 626 00:48:58,382 --> 00:49:02,978 The police began a deluge, which you can see here. 627 00:49:03,053 --> 00:49:04,816 That water's actually being pumped in... 628 00:49:04,888 --> 00:49:09,416 about, probably, 50 yards into the MOVE compound. 629 00:49:10,828 --> 00:49:13,888 As you can see up the street, Tom, if you just pan up there, 630 00:49:13,964 --> 00:49:18,367 it's a very surreal kind of scene. 631 00:49:18,435 --> 00:49:20,801 Very calm men standing around... 632 00:49:20,871 --> 00:49:25,433 as the cloud of tear gas, the haze, kind of begins to lift. 633 00:49:25,509 --> 00:49:28,239 Here comes some more tear gas down Addison Street. 634 00:49:28,312 --> 00:49:31,406 This apparently has expanded... 635 00:49:32,549 --> 00:49:35,848 to include the entire square block. 636 00:49:35,919 --> 00:49:39,650 Perhaps when the cloud clears, we'll know a little bit more. 637 00:49:42,593 --> 00:49:47,530 What was the plan for May 13, 1985? 638 00:49:47,598 --> 00:49:51,659 The tactical plan, as I understood it, 639 00:49:51,735 --> 00:49:56,695 was to remove the MOVE people, all the people, 640 00:49:56,774 --> 00:49:58,435 from the house safely. 641 00:49:58,509 --> 00:50:00,568 That was the objective. 642 00:50:00,644 --> 00:50:06,879 It was to be done by causing a diversion on the roof, 643 00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:10,647 inserting the insertion teams on either side of the properties... 644 00:50:11,922 --> 00:50:17,360 and by then inducing an amount of C.S. gas... 645 00:50:17,428 --> 00:50:19,089 in a sufficient concentration... 646 00:50:20,831 --> 00:50:23,800 to make those people come out of the house. 647 00:50:24,635 --> 00:50:30,198 The police presence here is not like it was the last time. 648 00:50:30,274 --> 00:50:33,175 This is being handled almost entirely by the stakeout unit. 649 00:50:33,243 --> 00:50:35,541 There may have just been a gunshot. 650 00:50:35,612 --> 00:50:37,739 The gunshots are starting right now. 651 00:50:37,815 --> 00:50:41,114 It sounds like automatic fire, Steve. There's quite a bit of it. 652 00:50:41,185 --> 00:50:44,225 We can't tell, Steve, at this point exactly where the gunfire is coming from. 653 00:50:45,823 --> 00:50:50,226 Okay. Steve, at this point we're being forced to leave our position. 654 00:50:50,294 --> 00:50:52,421 - We'll get back to you as soon as we can. - Let's go. 655 00:50:52,496 --> 00:50:54,464 The police are now moving Harvey Clarke. 656 00:50:54,531 --> 00:50:56,863 - Who shot first? - They did. 657 00:50:56,934 --> 00:51:00,028 - How do you know? - Because I was there. 658 00:51:00,104 --> 00:51:02,595 I understand that. Did you see muzzle fire? 659 00:51:02,673 --> 00:51:05,870 - I'm just trying to determine how you have that knowledge. - No, sir, I did not. 660 00:51:05,943 --> 00:51:11,575 But one of the other teams reported that they were receiving hostile fire. 661 00:51:11,648 --> 00:51:14,776 - Did it sound like automatic fire to you? - It did. Yes, sir. 662 00:51:14,852 --> 00:51:18,151 And I take it you're familiar with the sound of automatic weapons fire. 663 00:51:18,222 --> 00:51:19,985 I've heard automatic- Yes, sir. 664 00:51:22,292 --> 00:51:25,386 Pat, as you can see, we have reestablished our live signal. 665 00:51:25,462 --> 00:51:29,057 Tremendous bursts of gunfire have rang out... 666 00:51:29,133 --> 00:51:31,795 in the area of the 6200 block of Osage Avenue. 667 00:51:31,869 --> 00:51:34,804 Walt Hunter has joined me. And, Walter, what have you learned? 668 00:51:34,872 --> 00:51:36,863 We have heard several popping sounds here... 669 00:51:36,940 --> 00:51:39,431 indicating that gunfire is getting much, much closer. 670 00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:41,398 But we don't know if the guns you're hearing 671 00:51:41,411 --> 00:51:43,310 are police guns, MOVE guns or other guns. 672 00:51:43,380 --> 00:51:45,644 About the only thing we can confirm for you at this point... 673 00:51:45,716 --> 00:51:49,174 is that clearly, based on the nature of the shoot-out we're seeing here this morning, 674 00:51:49,253 --> 00:51:52,745 MOVE did have some weaponry either in the house or nearby. 675 00:52:03,767 --> 00:52:05,291 As you know, Commissioner, 676 00:52:05,369 --> 00:52:08,770 there were no automatic weapons found in the MOVE house. 677 00:52:08,839 --> 00:52:11,774 Do you know whether or not the automatic weapons fire you heard... 678 00:52:11,842 --> 00:52:14,037 was in fact from police officers? 679 00:52:15,913 --> 00:52:21,647 The firing, as initiated by MOVE, 680 00:52:21,718 --> 00:52:23,879 uh, was... 681 00:52:25,856 --> 00:52:30,225 apparently automatic fire, 682 00:52:30,294 --> 00:52:32,626 and I cannot explain it. 683 00:52:32,696 --> 00:52:37,690 But I do not believe for one minute... 684 00:52:37,768 --> 00:52:41,727 that it was the police that were firing at that time. 685 00:52:43,106 --> 00:52:46,166 Once the MOVE members started firing, 686 00:52:46,243 --> 00:52:48,803 their status changed radically in the eyes of the law. 687 00:52:48,879 --> 00:52:51,313 They at that point became forcible felons, 688 00:52:51,381 --> 00:52:53,713 and there's a whole different set of laws... 689 00:52:53,784 --> 00:52:56,685 as to the apprehension and the amount of force that can be used... 690 00:52:56,753 --> 00:53:01,349 in the apprehension of and the prevention of the escape of forcible felons. 691 00:53:01,425 --> 00:53:04,155 - Including the children? - No. 692 00:53:04,228 --> 00:53:05,923 That's as to the adults. 693 00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:08,759 We went downstairs. 694 00:53:08,832 --> 00:53:12,268 Did the adults tell you to go downstairs? 695 00:53:12,336 --> 00:53:14,600 And where did you go when you went downstairs? 696 00:53:14,671 --> 00:53:16,536 - The garage. - Into the garage? 697 00:53:16,607 --> 00:53:19,872 - But where were the men? - They were upstairs. 698 00:53:19,943 --> 00:53:21,934 Do you know what they were doing? 699 00:53:32,022 --> 00:53:35,856 Now, we know that the children wasn't doing any shooting. 700 00:53:35,926 --> 00:53:39,127 - Do you feel that their rights- - I did not know that the children were not shooting. 701 00:53:39,162 --> 00:53:42,893 What-Would you say that if we had children in there four, five, six years old... 702 00:53:42,966 --> 00:53:45,093 that they would have been using any type of weapons? 703 00:53:45,168 --> 00:53:48,535 To my knowledge, there was only one that young. 704 00:53:51,842 --> 00:53:53,394 We would like to tell you that the shoot-out is over. 705 00:53:53,407 --> 00:53:54,970 We cannot say that definitively. 706 00:53:55,045 --> 00:53:57,912 We can say there's been at least a 15- or 20-minute break in the gunfights. 707 00:53:57,981 --> 00:54:01,439 Here comes a police car racing in right now at this moment. 708 00:54:01,518 --> 00:54:04,851 This is a highway patrol car racing into the scene. 709 00:54:04,922 --> 00:54:06,617 We don't know what this signifies. 710 00:54:06,690 --> 00:54:10,057 We'd like to tell you it's over. We really can't right now. There has been a pause. 711 00:54:10,127 --> 00:54:13,187 There are indications that what has been a tremendous gunfight is over. 712 00:54:13,263 --> 00:54:15,163 Looking in the trunk of this car right here. 713 00:54:15,232 --> 00:54:18,065 There's more gunfire right now. We're gonna crouch down. 714 00:54:18,135 --> 00:54:21,366 As you were about to say, the police are unloading, as you can see right now. 715 00:54:21,438 --> 00:54:24,430 The police are unloading Winchester cartridge shells... 716 00:54:24,508 --> 00:54:27,170 from the back of a highway patrol car. 717 00:54:28,779 --> 00:54:31,771 Do you know how many rounds were fired that day? 718 00:54:31,848 --> 00:54:33,645 No, sir. 719 00:54:33,717 --> 00:54:38,313 But I will say that, uh- uh, we ran out. 720 00:54:41,124 --> 00:54:44,582 Uh, we did not anticipate, 721 00:54:44,661 --> 00:54:51,123 uh, the extent of the confrontation, 722 00:54:51,201 --> 00:54:53,032 uh, and ran out. 723 00:54:53,103 --> 00:54:57,563 Uh, I don't know what time it was, but it was some time in the morning. 724 00:55:01,945 --> 00:55:04,277 What's happening is, it's a shoot-out. 725 00:55:04,348 --> 00:55:08,751 Oh, man, and those kids and all that- 726 00:55:17,194 --> 00:55:21,290 The gunfire is as close as it's been since the shoot-out happened this morning. 727 00:55:21,365 --> 00:55:22,889 Let's-Let's come closer. 728 00:55:22,966 --> 00:55:27,528 Let's come closer and use-and crouch down behind the Eyewitness News truck. 729 00:55:32,209 --> 00:55:34,905 Oh, my God! 730 00:55:46,223 --> 00:55:48,748 Get down, lady. Get down. Yeah. 731 00:55:52,329 --> 00:55:55,321 Stay in the house. Stay inside. 732 00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,091 I heard shots being fired, and cops was in the alleyway. 733 00:55:59,169 --> 00:56:00,966 They was like, "Get in the house. Don't come out." 734 00:56:01,038 --> 00:56:02,733 I was very, very frightened. 735 00:56:02,806 --> 00:56:04,296 You supposed to nip something in the bud. 736 00:56:04,374 --> 00:56:05,813 If you see something's coming, you're supposed 737 00:56:05,826 --> 00:56:07,275 to sit down and try to iron it out... 738 00:56:07,344 --> 00:56:09,744 before something like this comes to this stage. 739 00:56:09,813 --> 00:56:12,281 It's war. This is war. 740 00:56:12,349 --> 00:56:14,389 I've never seen it, but I've lived through it today. 741 00:56:28,498 --> 00:56:30,159 This woman-We can't determine... 742 00:56:30,233 --> 00:56:34,670 whether she is a relative of one of the MOVE members or not. 743 00:56:34,738 --> 00:56:37,366 It appeared that things had gotten calm. 744 00:56:37,441 --> 00:56:41,935 And then as you heard, about a minute and a half ago, another burst of gunfire. 745 00:56:42,012 --> 00:56:44,503 This woman is now being taken into police custody. 746 00:56:44,581 --> 00:56:47,015 You're watching it live. They are restraining her. 747 00:56:47,084 --> 00:56:51,453 She is hysterical and is clearly upset about what's going on in there. 748 00:56:51,521 --> 00:56:54,888 Just trying to get her out of the danger area where we are on the fringes right now. 749 00:56:56,193 --> 00:56:58,161 Did you have a concern... 750 00:56:58,228 --> 00:57:00,992 that the people inside of that house... 751 00:57:01,064 --> 00:57:04,329 might be in physical danger or that their lives might be in danger? 752 00:57:04,401 --> 00:57:06,961 Concern? We knew it. 753 00:57:07,037 --> 00:57:08,527 - Miss- - We-Excuse me. 754 00:57:08,605 --> 00:57:13,065 We had- You had 200 boot-kicking, 755 00:57:13,143 --> 00:57:17,375 Gestapo-oriented cops out there that day. 756 00:57:17,447 --> 00:57:23,147 You had, that day, a police officer by the name of Mulvihill... 757 00:57:23,220 --> 00:57:29,750 who was in the 1978, uh, tragedy... 758 00:57:29,826 --> 00:57:35,787 who was, in fact, one of the officers who stomped and kicked... 759 00:57:35,866 --> 00:57:38,596 and beat and bludgeoned... 760 00:57:38,668 --> 00:57:43,105 and shot and helmeted and kicked some more... 761 00:57:43,173 --> 00:57:45,767 my brother, Delbert Africa. 762 00:57:45,842 --> 00:57:48,538 So as I understand your testimony, 763 00:57:48,612 --> 00:57:50,477 you were concerned that there may be physical harm... 764 00:57:50,547 --> 00:57:52,777 to the people inside that house, is that correct? 765 00:57:52,849 --> 00:57:54,612 Would you turn up your hearing aid, please? 766 00:57:54,684 --> 00:57:56,345 I can hear you fine, Mrs. James. 767 00:57:56,419 --> 00:57:58,046 - My question is- - Well, then if you can hear me fine, 768 00:57:58,121 --> 00:58:00,783 if you don't have a hearing aid, I suggest you get one. 769 00:58:00,857 --> 00:58:02,347 - Well, because- - Excuse me! 770 00:58:02,425 --> 00:58:03,517 Yes, ma'am. 771 00:58:03,593 --> 00:58:05,754 To ask me... 772 00:58:05,829 --> 00:58:11,358 "were we concerned" is complete insanity. 773 00:58:21,411 --> 00:58:26,747 By virtue of the fact that MOVE had construction on the roof... 774 00:58:26,817 --> 00:58:29,718 that was commonly referred to as the bunker, 775 00:58:29,786 --> 00:58:35,816 that gave them complete command of the Osage Avenue, 776 00:58:35,892 --> 00:58:38,827 access over the roofs... 777 00:58:39,796 --> 00:58:43,664 they were in an enviable tactical position. 778 00:58:44,601 --> 00:58:47,161 The water cannon used during the MOVE standoff today... 779 00:58:47,237 --> 00:58:50,900 shoots an estimated 1,000 gallons of water a minute. 780 00:58:50,974 --> 00:58:53,875 Sources say the purpose of the water is threefold. 781 00:58:53,944 --> 00:58:56,845 First, to disorient the people inside the house. 782 00:58:56,913 --> 00:59:01,748 Secondly, the water increases humidity, which makes tear gas more effective. 783 00:59:01,818 --> 00:59:06,482 Thirdly, the powerful water pressure could cause the house to collapse. 784 00:59:08,458 --> 00:59:13,987 If that plan relied solely on the ability of our equipment to knock the bunker off, 785 00:59:14,064 --> 00:59:18,228 they knew very clearly up front that we could not guarantee that, sir. 786 00:59:30,780 --> 00:59:34,546 Chris, I saw Police Commissioner Gregore Sambor about 45 minutes ago, 787 00:59:34,618 --> 00:59:37,712 and he described his men as, quote, "taking a break now." 788 00:59:37,787 --> 00:59:40,557 They're obviously somewhat startled by the way that 789 00:59:40,570 --> 00:59:43,350 MOVE'S building at 62 and Osage was fortified... 790 00:59:43,426 --> 00:59:47,920 and able to take the water barrage and the bullets that flew in there this morning. 791 00:59:47,998 --> 00:59:49,590 Thousands of rounds spun off. 792 00:59:49,666 --> 00:59:52,635 Larry, for the first time, it's been quiet for several hours here. 793 00:59:52,702 --> 00:59:54,789 The police helicopter did go back up, and I guess 794 00:59:54,802 --> 00:59:56,900 they wanted to take a look at the top of the bunker. 795 00:59:56,973 --> 00:59:59,430 We had reports-What you see in front there, 796 00:59:59,443 --> 01:00:01,910 the yellow tarp is the front of that building, 797 01:00:01,978 --> 01:00:04,310 and we were told that that bunker was destroyed. 798 01:00:04,381 --> 01:00:05,973 But it appears that it's still there. 799 01:00:06,049 --> 01:00:08,745 Okay, Harvey. They stopped the snorkel gun now. 800 01:00:08,818 --> 01:00:13,255 - There's no water on that roof. - For some time, the water has been turned off. 801 01:00:13,323 --> 01:00:15,188 At City Hall this afternoon, 802 01:00:15,258 --> 01:00:17,590 Mayor Goode appeared publicly for the first time since the siege began. 803 01:00:17,661 --> 01:00:21,529 Goode said he's committed to removing MOVE from the structure. 804 01:00:21,598 --> 01:00:23,793 We intend to evict from the house. 805 01:00:23,867 --> 01:00:27,667 We intend to evacuate from the house, and we intend to seize control of the house. 806 01:00:27,737 --> 01:00:32,470 - How will you do that? - We will do it by any means necessary. 807 01:00:41,284 --> 01:00:43,275 Something is starting to happen. 808 01:00:43,353 --> 01:00:46,686 There is a big- The fire engine has fired up again. 809 01:00:46,756 --> 01:00:49,281 Its engine is on for the first time all afternoon. 810 01:00:49,359 --> 01:00:52,886 We just saw some police officers behind us have their hands over their ears. 811 01:00:52,963 --> 01:00:55,693 We don't know why. We can't hear anything at this point. 812 01:00:55,765 --> 01:00:58,290 I must say that this tiny little flurry of activity... 813 01:00:58,368 --> 01:01:01,303 is really the first bit of activity that there's been here all afternoon. 814 01:01:01,371 --> 01:01:02,861 It's been very quiet. 815 01:01:02,939 --> 01:01:06,170 Police say that they have a plan. They say it will be implemented shortly. 816 01:01:06,242 --> 01:01:08,073 We will tell you what it is when it happens. 817 01:01:08,144 --> 01:01:12,706 Reporting live from 62nd and Delancey, this is Chris Wagner, Channel 6 Action News. 818 01:01:29,399 --> 01:01:32,800 This device that was used- You're calling it a device. 819 01:01:32,869 --> 01:01:35,736 I'm calling it a bomb. But did it ever occur to you... 820 01:01:35,805 --> 01:01:38,575 that this might have been a dangerous device 821 01:01:38,588 --> 01:01:41,368 to use in a residential neighborhood? 822 01:01:41,444 --> 01:01:43,105 Yes, ma'am. 823 01:01:43,179 --> 01:01:46,342 - It did occur to you? - Yes, ma'am. 824 01:01:49,019 --> 01:01:50,509 By not vetoing it, 825 01:01:50,587 --> 01:01:53,852 did you approve the plan to use an explosive on the roof? 826 01:01:53,923 --> 01:01:58,519 I think that I was fully aware that it would, in fact, be used, 827 01:01:58,595 --> 01:02:02,497 and it is my view that you can regard that... 828 01:02:02,565 --> 01:02:05,864 as an approval of using the explosive on the roof, yes. 829 01:02:21,184 --> 01:02:25,518 ...right there in a 10-15 foot hover above the roof. 830 01:02:25,588 --> 01:02:29,854 And I was right on the left-hand side of the helicopter right here. 831 01:02:29,926 --> 01:02:33,225 Onto this corner is where I finally came to a stop. 832 01:03:06,830 --> 01:03:09,298 You were down in the garage, is that right? 833 01:03:09,365 --> 01:03:14,325 We was down there for a while, and then everybody came down. 834 01:03:14,404 --> 01:03:18,704 - All the men came down? - That's when the big bomb went off. 835 01:03:29,953 --> 01:03:32,217 It shook the whole house up. 836 01:03:36,693 --> 01:03:38,854 Police say there has just been a huge explosion here. 837 01:03:38,928 --> 01:03:41,829 We don't know what it means, but it just shook the whole place. 838 01:03:41,898 --> 01:03:45,459 Debris flew all over the place. I don't know what that explosion was. 839 01:03:45,535 --> 01:03:48,231 All I can tell you is that it was a huge blast. 840 01:03:48,304 --> 01:03:49,896 Get a shot with me. Get a sh- 841 01:03:49,973 --> 01:03:52,893 - Harvey, can you hear us? - At this point, I really can't tell you very much. 842 01:03:52,942 --> 01:03:56,400 There was about a 15-second delay, then an explosion. 843 01:03:56,479 --> 01:03:58,999 Perhaps the most frightening thing here is that police do say... 844 01:03:59,015 --> 01:04:01,696 that six to eight children are believed to be inside the MOVE house. 845 01:04:01,751 --> 01:04:04,549 As soon as we find out what the explosion is, we will try to tell you. 846 01:04:04,621 --> 01:04:06,555 At this point, I simply do not know. 847 01:04:08,892 --> 01:04:12,158 After the explosion, you saw that the bunker was still there. 848 01:04:12,183 --> 01:04:13,228 Yes, sir. 849 01:04:13,229 --> 01:04:15,185 Did you observe any smoke or fire on the roof? 850 01:04:15,198 --> 01:04:17,165 I did not. 851 01:04:17,233 --> 01:04:20,862 And-I did hear over the radio that there was none. 852 01:04:45,328 --> 01:04:50,459 It's easy to equate explosions and explosive materials with fire. 853 01:04:50,533 --> 01:04:52,023 But that's not necessarily so. 854 01:04:52,101 --> 01:04:53,829 'Cause I think we've all seen buildings 855 01:04:53,842 --> 01:04:55,581 demolished, and it's used all the time in mining. 856 01:04:55,605 --> 01:04:58,802 So I don't think you can just logically conclude... 857 01:04:58,875 --> 01:05:02,606 if you're going to have an explosion, you're going to have a fire. 858 01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:05,910 There's no more smoke. And at this point, looking over my shoulder, 859 01:05:05,982 --> 01:05:10,043 the water barrage appears to have ended again. 860 01:05:29,038 --> 01:05:32,565 Okay, there is a new development at the MOVE building, 62nd and Osage. 861 01:05:32,642 --> 01:05:34,940 We'll go live right away to Harvey Clarke at the scene. 862 01:05:35,011 --> 01:05:37,741 - What's going on, Harvey? - Larry, behind me you can probably see right now- 863 01:05:37,814 --> 01:05:39,577 We'll push and try to get a little tighter shot of it- 864 01:05:39,649 --> 01:05:43,608 that the satchel charge, or whatever- the explosive or bomb... 865 01:05:43,686 --> 01:05:46,211 that was dropped on the MOVE compound just a few minutes ago... 866 01:05:46,289 --> 01:05:48,519 has apparently started a serious fire. 867 01:05:48,591 --> 01:05:52,493 But the two deluge guns or sprinklers... 868 01:05:52,562 --> 01:05:56,726 that they've been pumping water in from Pine Street are not active now. 869 01:05:58,067 --> 01:06:01,559 I wanted to get the bunker. 870 01:06:01,638 --> 01:06:07,474 I wanted to be able to somehow have tactical superiority... 871 01:06:07,543 --> 01:06:12,606 without sacrificing any lives, if it were at all possible. 872 01:06:14,784 --> 01:06:17,344 Commissioner Sambor said to me. 873 01:06:18,388 --> 01:06:20,788 He said let's let the bunker burn... 874 01:06:20,857 --> 01:06:24,759 to eliminate that high ground advantage and the tactical advantage of the bunker. 875 01:06:24,827 --> 01:06:26,317 And I said, "Yeah, okay." 876 01:06:26,396 --> 01:06:28,694 it was not an order. 877 01:06:28,765 --> 01:06:31,063 In essence, in communication- 878 01:06:31,134 --> 01:06:35,628 I communicated to him that I would like to let the fire burn. 879 01:06:49,819 --> 01:06:51,660 Larry, this is becoming a very emotional scene. 880 01:06:51,721 --> 01:06:53,348 With me is Janice Walker. 881 01:06:53,423 --> 01:06:55,948 She lives at 6217 Osage, 882 01:06:56,025 --> 01:06:58,823 - just two doors from the MOVE house. - Yes. 883 01:06:58,895 --> 01:07:00,954 And you're afraid that your house may be on fire. 884 01:07:01,030 --> 01:07:03,965 I'm sure it's just destroyed, and it's just not fair. 885 01:07:04,033 --> 01:07:07,560 We've been there over 20 years, and we didn't have to have to go through this. 886 01:07:07,637 --> 01:07:11,073 We only left with a few odds and ends, you know, for the night. 887 01:07:11,140 --> 01:07:14,007 We had no idea it was gonna be this devastating. 888 01:07:14,077 --> 01:07:17,046 You've got innocent people that live around there on Osage Avenue, 889 01:07:17,113 --> 01:07:18,910 and they just, you know- 890 01:07:18,981 --> 01:07:21,779 Their properties have just gone up in smoke. 891 01:07:32,628 --> 01:07:37,122 I saw initially a small fire on the roof. 892 01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:40,169 I saw what appeared... 893 01:07:40,236 --> 01:07:44,366 to be some water coming in. 894 01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,000 I determined later that that was not water at all... 895 01:07:47,076 --> 01:07:52,810 but was basically the kind of snow on my television screen. 896 01:07:52,882 --> 01:07:55,476 And after about five minutes of watching that, 897 01:07:55,551 --> 01:07:59,487 I gave what was my first order of the day, 898 01:07:59,555 --> 01:08:01,546 which was "put the fire out." 899 01:08:02,258 --> 01:08:07,286 You are aware that the mayor has testified... 900 01:08:07,363 --> 01:08:12,630 that at approximately 6:00 on the evening of May 13, 901 01:08:12,702 --> 01:08:16,160 he ordered that the fire be put out. 902 01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:19,072 I heard the testimony, yes, sir. 903 01:08:21,711 --> 01:08:24,771 Do you know whether or not... 904 01:08:24,847 --> 01:08:29,147 there had been any order to put the fire out? 905 01:08:31,788 --> 01:08:33,813 Yes, sir. 906 01:08:33,890 --> 01:08:37,587 - Did you convey that order to anyone else? - Yes, sir. 907 01:08:37,660 --> 01:08:41,653 - To whom? - The fire commissioner was still there. 908 01:08:42,698 --> 01:08:44,461 To whom? 909 01:08:44,534 --> 01:08:47,867 The fire commissioner was still there. 910 01:08:48,871 --> 01:08:52,363 - Those responses were Commissioner Sambor, sir? - Yes, sir. 911 01:08:52,442 --> 01:08:53,932 I categorically deny that. 912 01:08:54,010 --> 01:08:57,002 I had no knowledge of an order to extinguish that fire. 913 01:09:43,292 --> 01:09:47,194 Was there any smoke or tear gas in the garage when you were down there? 914 01:09:47,263 --> 01:09:49,754 - Or was there tear gas? - It was smoke and tear gas. 915 01:09:49,832 --> 01:09:51,322 Smoke and tear gas? 916 01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:55,234 Did it bother you? Did it burn your eyes or anything? 917 01:09:55,304 --> 01:09:57,033 And what did you all do? 918 01:09:57,106 --> 01:09:59,734 We was under the blanket with our heads. 919 01:09:59,809 --> 01:10:02,004 - Were all the kids under blankets? - Mm-hmm. 920 01:10:02,078 --> 01:10:04,876 - Where were the women? - Under blankets. 921 01:10:04,947 --> 01:10:08,007 They were under blankets? Now, you said the blankets were wet. 922 01:10:08,084 --> 01:10:09,073 Mm-hmm. 923 01:10:09,151 --> 01:10:13,178 - How did the blankets get wet? - 'Cause we had 'em in the bucket. 924 01:10:13,256 --> 01:10:14,848 Bucket of water. 925 01:10:19,762 --> 01:10:25,496 Isn't it true, Commissioner Sambor and fire Commissioner Richmond, 926 01:10:25,568 --> 01:10:32,235 that you in effect made a decision to use fire as a weapon in this instance? 927 01:10:32,308 --> 01:10:34,776 Absolutely not, sir. 928 01:10:36,546 --> 01:10:42,815 Well, you made a decision to let that fire burn until the bunker was destroyed. 929 01:10:42,885 --> 01:10:44,819 - Isn't that right? - When you talk about a weapon, 930 01:10:44,887 --> 01:10:48,687 you talk about a weapon as being used against probably individuals, 931 01:10:48,758 --> 01:10:53,354 and that was never a consideration nor would I ever use it as a consideration. 932 01:10:53,429 --> 01:10:55,659 Well, fire Commissioner Richmond, 933 01:10:55,731 --> 01:10:58,700 what did you understand the police commissioner was asking you to do? 934 01:10:58,768 --> 01:11:01,236 I would respond in the same way, Justice Kaufmann. 935 01:11:01,304 --> 01:11:03,224 There is no one that I know in city government... 936 01:11:03,239 --> 01:11:06,834 that would intentionally go out there to burn those people like that. 937 01:11:06,909 --> 01:11:08,900 There's no one that I know of could do that. 938 01:11:33,102 --> 01:11:37,198 You were aware in 1978, I assume, 939 01:11:37,273 --> 01:11:40,265 that a situation had developed... 940 01:11:40,343 --> 01:11:44,507 involving certain police officers and Delbert Africa? 941 01:11:44,580 --> 01:11:46,172 Yes, sir. 942 01:11:46,248 --> 01:11:47,738 Did you give any instructions... 943 01:11:47,817 --> 01:11:50,405 as to whether or not the officers who were 944 01:11:50,418 --> 01:11:53,016 specifically involved in that altercation... 945 01:11:53,089 --> 01:11:58,550 should or should not be included in the operation for May 13, 1985? 946 01:11:58,628 --> 01:12:00,493 I did not. 947 01:12:00,563 --> 01:12:07,332 Weren't you concerned that there might be some revenge motive... 948 01:12:07,403 --> 01:12:11,863 which may take the police action beyond the legal limits? 949 01:12:11,941 --> 01:12:13,926 I think there's no question there was, at least 950 01:12:13,939 --> 01:12:15,934 on the part of some policemen, residual anger... 951 01:12:16,012 --> 01:12:19,641 towards MOVE organization or members thereof. 952 01:12:19,715 --> 01:12:21,205 No question about that. 953 01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,948 Would the court reporter please swear in the witnesses? 954 01:12:27,023 --> 01:12:28,291 Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the 955 01:12:28,304 --> 01:12:29,583 whole truth and nothing but the truth... 956 01:12:29,659 --> 01:12:32,150 - so help you God? - I do. 957 01:12:32,228 --> 01:12:38,030 Officer D'Ulisse, I understand that in 1978, you were present on August 8... 958 01:12:38,100 --> 01:12:42,764 during an altercation that occurred with Delbert Africa. 959 01:12:42,838 --> 01:12:44,396 Yes. 960 01:12:44,473 --> 01:12:46,065 And officer Mulvihill? 961 01:12:46,142 --> 01:12:49,407 What does that have to do with May the 13th? 962 01:12:49,478 --> 01:12:51,639 The officer was tried and found not guilty of that offense. 963 01:12:51,714 --> 01:12:54,376 That was going to be my next statement, Mr. Mozenter. 964 01:12:54,450 --> 01:12:58,546 Officer, we understand that you were charged in connection with that case, 965 01:12:58,621 --> 01:13:01,590 and also we understand that there was a direct 966 01:13:01,603 --> 01:13:04,582 verdict by Judge Dibona of not guilty in that case. 967 01:13:04,660 --> 01:13:06,787 - Is that correct? - That's correct. 968 01:13:08,297 --> 01:13:10,515 Stakeout police have just taken position. 969 01:13:10,528 --> 01:13:12,757 There must be movement somewhere in the Osage, 970 01:13:12,835 --> 01:13:19,399 and they're all scattering between 62nd and Osage and 63rd. 971 01:13:19,475 --> 01:13:22,171 They're running around like something's going on around here. 972 01:13:22,244 --> 01:13:25,736 These are live pictures. They are looking for something there. 973 01:13:25,815 --> 01:13:29,307 You can hear hollering. Where it was coming from, Larry, I don't know. 974 01:13:30,786 --> 01:13:33,277 When the fire got real heavy, 975 01:13:33,355 --> 01:13:35,619 when we smelled all that smoke, and we couldn't breathe, 976 01:13:35,691 --> 01:13:39,218 then that's when we started yelling that "kids coming out," 977 01:13:39,295 --> 01:13:45,996 and then they opened the garage door and opened the cellar window. 978 01:13:46,068 --> 01:13:47,899 What did you say? What did you yell? 979 01:13:47,970 --> 01:13:50,905 We were saying, "We wanna come out!" 980 01:13:50,973 --> 01:13:52,998 "We wanna come out?" 981 01:13:53,075 --> 01:13:55,771 And what did the other children do? Did they do the same thing? 982 01:13:55,845 --> 01:13:57,176 Yeah. 983 01:13:57,246 --> 01:14:01,683 - Were any of the children crying? - Yeah. We all was. 984 01:14:03,185 --> 01:14:07,815 - Why had you all gone to the back alley? - To prevent the escape of MOVE members. 985 01:14:07,890 --> 01:14:10,085 Well, what did you expect to find in that alley, 986 01:14:10,159 --> 01:14:12,457 the reason why you took a machine gun back there? 987 01:14:14,830 --> 01:14:16,923 I had no idea what to expect in the alley. 988 01:14:22,972 --> 01:14:24,963 Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth... 989 01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:27,440 - and nothing but the truth so help you God? - I do. 990 01:14:31,247 --> 01:14:35,445 Your vantage point was to the back of 6221. 991 01:14:35,518 --> 01:14:37,145 - Is that correct? - Yes. 992 01:14:37,219 --> 01:14:39,949 All right. Was there any time... 993 01:14:40,022 --> 01:14:43,788 that you observed either with your eyes or your ears... 994 01:14:43,859 --> 01:14:46,350 people attempting to come out of that house? 995 01:14:47,163 --> 01:14:51,998 I heard a female scream, "Don't shoot. We're coming out." 996 01:14:52,067 --> 01:14:55,230 At that time officer Trudel who was at the rear window. 997 01:14:55,304 --> 01:14:57,795 Officer Trudel said, "They're coming out." 998 01:15:00,676 --> 01:15:02,581 if you look carefully, by the way, if you can 999 01:15:02,594 --> 01:15:04,510 take a look so I can point to the monitor here, 1000 01:15:04,580 --> 01:15:08,448 right here is a line of stakeout squad officers, 1001 01:15:08,517 --> 01:15:11,884 and they seem to be lined up at the ready waiting for something to happen. 1002 01:15:11,954 --> 01:15:15,219 They seem to be waiting for something to come out of that house. 1003 01:15:15,291 --> 01:15:18,055 You said that Rad tried to take Tomaso out? 1004 01:15:18,127 --> 01:15:19,651 Mm-hmm. 1005 01:15:19,728 --> 01:15:24,597 He was on his knees, and he had Tomaso around his stomach like that. 1006 01:15:24,667 --> 01:15:27,659 On his knees? Was he crawling along the garage floor? 1007 01:15:27,736 --> 01:15:29,328 Rad was. 1008 01:15:42,151 --> 01:15:45,086 Now, when they did come out, I see the smaller child come out, 1009 01:15:45,154 --> 01:15:47,019 and then an adult male come out right behind them. 1010 01:15:47,089 --> 01:15:48,351 Yeah. 1011 01:15:48,424 --> 01:15:53,862 And he stood up and aimed a rifle up in the direction of officer Bariana's position... 1012 01:15:53,929 --> 01:15:56,796 and fired, like, four or five quick shots. 1013 01:15:56,866 --> 01:15:59,164 Did Conrad have a rifle or a gun... 1014 01:15:59,235 --> 01:16:02,727 when he went out the garage door? 1015 01:16:02,805 --> 01:16:04,102 Mm-mmm. 1016 01:16:04,173 --> 01:16:06,232 What did he use to open the bolt on the door? 1017 01:16:06,308 --> 01:16:07,900 A big monkey wrench. 1018 01:16:07,977 --> 01:16:09,535 A big monkey wrench? 1019 01:16:09,612 --> 01:16:12,638 Are you certain it was a rifle and not a monkey wrench or something of that nature? 1020 01:16:12,715 --> 01:16:16,151 No, sir. When this- I know a rifle, believe me. 1021 01:16:16,218 --> 01:16:18,550 And when this male pointed this rifle up, 1022 01:16:18,621 --> 01:16:23,285 I- in other words, I could hear sound and see muzzle flashes. 1023 01:16:23,359 --> 01:16:27,295 Now, you say that some shooting started. Did you hear shooting? 1024 01:16:27,363 --> 01:16:29,593 It was a- 1025 01:16:29,665 --> 01:16:31,565 Like it was just going after- 1026 01:16:31,634 --> 01:16:35,195 Like it was going-Bullets were going after each other. Like- 1027 01:16:35,271 --> 01:16:37,364 Bullets were going one right after the other. 1028 01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:39,464 - Something like that? - Yeah. 1029 01:16:39,541 --> 01:16:42,339 Sergeant Griffiths, could you just by rapping on the table... 1030 01:16:42,411 --> 01:16:46,279 indicate the sound the best you can recall of those shots? 1031 01:16:46,348 --> 01:16:48,373 It was not automatic fire, if that's what you're asking. 1032 01:16:48,450 --> 01:16:51,180 Okay, could you just try and indicate for me what it sounded like? 1033 01:16:54,723 --> 01:16:58,159 Did you ever fire your weapons after the bomb was dropped, officer Mulvihill? 1034 01:16:58,227 --> 01:16:59,717 No, sir. 1035 01:16:59,795 --> 01:17:02,821 - Officer D'Ulisse? - No, sir. 1036 01:17:02,898 --> 01:17:06,800 He had two officers taking him out, and then they started shooting again, 1037 01:17:06,869 --> 01:17:11,431 and then they brought him back in, and then they locked the thing back up. 1038 01:17:16,111 --> 01:17:18,443 Did you see the child actually go back into the house? 1039 01:17:18,514 --> 01:17:20,539 I believe the child went back into the house. 1040 01:17:20,616 --> 01:17:22,447 All right. 1041 01:17:27,356 --> 01:17:31,850 Do you have any idea why that person may have gone back into the fire? 1042 01:17:31,927 --> 01:17:34,418 My own idea? What I think? 1043 01:17:34,496 --> 01:17:35,986 Yes. 1044 01:17:36,065 --> 01:17:40,297 I just think they went back into that fire... 1045 01:17:40,369 --> 01:17:42,269 sort of to regroup. 1046 01:17:42,938 --> 01:17:45,031 Well, 1047 01:17:45,107 --> 01:17:47,507 just as a human being myself... 1048 01:17:49,278 --> 01:17:52,941 I'm just trying to imagine myself in that situation... 1049 01:17:53,015 --> 01:17:57,349 and behind me there's a raging inferno... 1050 01:17:57,419 --> 01:18:01,788 and in front of me there are people who are saying "come on out." 1051 01:18:02,725 --> 01:18:05,250 I'm trying to imagine... 1052 01:18:05,327 --> 01:18:08,990 what would cause me to turn back and run into the fire. 1053 01:18:13,068 --> 01:18:16,731 I don't think we said anything other than come down to us. 1054 01:18:16,805 --> 01:18:18,295 Come on down with your hands up- 1055 01:18:18,374 --> 01:18:24,904 the normal police jargon for calling the suspects to come down. 1056 01:18:24,980 --> 01:18:26,743 Mm-hmm. 1057 01:18:26,815 --> 01:18:29,978 I'm just saying that I'm trying to put myself in that person's skin. 1058 01:18:30,052 --> 01:18:33,180 Sir, I don't think you ever could. These were MOVE members. 1059 01:18:34,056 --> 01:18:37,890 Well, you see, 1060 01:18:38,861 --> 01:18:43,059 I knew a lot of those people... 1061 01:18:43,132 --> 01:18:45,692 as individuals and as human beings. 1062 01:18:45,768 --> 01:18:48,965 A lot of people know MOVE from what they may have seen. 1063 01:18:49,805 --> 01:18:51,932 But I had a lot of dealings with them, 1064 01:18:52,007 --> 01:18:54,805 and I knew them to be more than MOVE people. 1065 01:18:54,877 --> 01:18:59,473 I knew many of them by name, as human beings. 1066 01:19:01,984 --> 01:19:03,645 It's probably a rhetorical question. 1067 01:19:03,719 --> 01:19:05,453 I don't think you, from the way you've 1068 01:19:05,466 --> 01:19:07,226 responded, I don't think you can answer that. 1069 01:19:07,289 --> 01:19:08,779 No, sir. 1070 01:19:19,701 --> 01:19:21,931 And then what happened to Tomaso? 1071 01:19:22,004 --> 01:19:25,667 Rhonda was going like this on his back. 1072 01:19:26,475 --> 01:19:29,035 - Rhonda had Tomaso? - Mm-hmm. 1073 01:19:29,111 --> 01:19:32,706 And she was hitting him on his back? 1074 01:19:32,781 --> 01:19:34,715 Was he crying then? 1075 01:19:35,818 --> 01:19:37,649 He had stopped crying? 1076 01:19:37,719 --> 01:19:39,687 Did you hear him cry anymore... 1077 01:19:39,755 --> 01:19:42,349 after she was trying to pat him and hit him on his back? 1078 01:19:42,424 --> 01:19:44,153 Only one time. 1079 01:19:44,226 --> 01:19:46,353 - And then what happened? - He stopped. 1080 01:19:46,428 --> 01:19:47,918 He stopped? 1081 01:19:54,069 --> 01:19:56,003 And then what happened? 1082 01:19:56,071 --> 01:20:00,235 I didn't hear nobody, and I just ran out of there. 1083 01:20:06,348 --> 01:20:08,543 Oh, my goodness. 1084 01:20:09,785 --> 01:20:11,275 Well, Larry, 1085 01:20:11,353 --> 01:20:15,915 the flames are probably now leaping, um, 1086 01:20:15,991 --> 01:20:18,391 uh, 10 stories high. 1087 01:20:18,460 --> 01:20:20,297 It just looked like something was completely engulfed. 1088 01:20:20,310 --> 01:20:22,157 What you're seeing now- 1089 01:20:22,231 --> 01:20:25,098 You're telling me that the flames are now leaping high? 1090 01:20:39,148 --> 01:20:44,916 I remember Ramona coming from the rear of the MOVE yard over the fence and down. 1091 01:20:44,987 --> 01:20:47,421 She had started to walk down, stopped. 1092 01:20:47,489 --> 01:20:49,548 And she would wave with her hand like this. 1093 01:20:51,460 --> 01:20:53,485 And then I see Birdie. 1094 01:20:53,562 --> 01:20:56,793 The way I describe it, it looked like he literally came through the fire. 1095 01:20:58,066 --> 01:20:59,761 There was a board on fire there, 1096 01:20:59,835 --> 01:21:03,430 and he hopped over that and he started coming down. 1097 01:21:03,505 --> 01:21:07,202 What did you see when you first ran out of the house? 1098 01:21:07,276 --> 01:21:08,834 I saw fire and stuff. 1099 01:21:08,911 --> 01:21:10,879 You saw fire? Where did you see the fire? 1100 01:21:10,946 --> 01:21:13,540 The tree was on fire, and the house was. 1101 01:21:13,615 --> 01:21:15,634 And the house was on fire? How about on the ground? 1102 01:21:15,647 --> 01:21:17,676 Was anything on the ground on fire? 1103 01:21:17,753 --> 01:21:20,313 The pieces of the tree was falling down. 1104 01:21:20,389 --> 01:21:23,324 Pieces of fire from the tree were falling down? 1105 01:21:25,894 --> 01:21:29,955 Did the adults tell you what to do if you all got out of the house? 1106 01:21:30,032 --> 01:21:32,592 They told us to stay together. 1107 01:21:34,303 --> 01:21:35,793 Ramona's up top. 1108 01:21:35,871 --> 01:21:37,805 - She's on the walkway, the elevated walkway? - That's right. 1109 01:21:37,873 --> 01:21:39,602 Birdie's in the driveway. 1110 01:21:39,675 --> 01:21:43,076 Now, as they're coming down, Ramona's a little bit in the front. 1111 01:21:43,145 --> 01:21:47,172 But at one time does Ramona stop... 1112 01:21:47,249 --> 01:21:52,881 and she goes over to the railing and reached over and tried to pick Birdie up. 1113 01:21:52,955 --> 01:21:55,685 He got I believe one foot, maybe two, I don't know, 1114 01:21:55,757 --> 01:22:00,023 on the bottom of the concrete wall where the fence meets. 1115 01:22:00,095 --> 01:22:01,255 Okay? 1116 01:22:01,330 --> 01:22:03,525 And she either let go or slipped or whatever. 1117 01:22:03,599 --> 01:22:05,624 But Birdie fell back. He went back. 1118 01:22:05,701 --> 01:22:09,102 And I remember he didn't get a chance to put his hands down to break his fall. 1119 01:22:09,171 --> 01:22:11,901 The impression I was left with- He landed square on his head. 1120 01:22:15,143 --> 01:22:18,601 If you're watching somebody or somebody falls... 1121 01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:21,046 and you hear a thud, 1122 01:22:21,116 --> 01:22:23,175 you can almost feel it. 1123 01:22:23,252 --> 01:22:25,777 That's the same sensation I think we all got, 1124 01:22:25,854 --> 01:22:28,823 that we knew Birdie was hurt at this time. 1125 01:22:28,890 --> 01:22:31,950 It was an actual feeling. We could all feel it. 1126 01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:47,704 I remember Birdie just laying there, not doing anything. 1127 01:22:47,776 --> 01:22:50,609 I said, "Tommy, here. Take my shotgun." I said, "I'm gonna go get the kid." 1128 01:22:50,679 --> 01:22:53,239 And I remember him saying to me, "I'll cover you." 1129 01:22:53,315 --> 01:22:55,943 - Officer Mellor saying that? - That's right. 1130 01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:03,254 At one point did I start out to get Birdie, 1131 01:23:03,325 --> 01:23:06,488 and that's the first time I realized officer Tursi was behind me. 1132 01:23:06,561 --> 01:23:10,520 He grabbed my left shoulder. He said," Don't go out there, Jim. It's a trap." 1133 01:23:10,599 --> 01:23:12,226 What was your concern, officer? 1134 01:23:12,301 --> 01:23:14,599 I don't know how to explain it other than a sixth sense or something... 1135 01:23:14,670 --> 01:23:18,037 that there was something wrong in the way Ramona went down. 1136 01:23:18,774 --> 01:23:22,335 I just felt something was incorrect or not right about that situation. 1137 01:23:22,411 --> 01:23:26,643 I stopped him from going out right at that time. That's all. 1138 01:23:26,715 --> 01:23:29,715 I was scared to death. I just didn't wanna let that kid lay there like that. 1139 01:23:33,622 --> 01:23:35,180 So what did you do? 1140 01:23:35,257 --> 01:23:37,885 My priorities at that time were the kid. 1141 01:23:38,894 --> 01:23:41,795 We're trying to say to him, "Son, come over here. Come over here." 1142 01:23:41,863 --> 01:23:43,888 We're trying to get him to come to us. 1143 01:23:43,965 --> 01:23:46,593 This is the result of officer Tursi saying be careful. 1144 01:23:46,668 --> 01:23:48,323 "It's not right" or something to that effect. 1145 01:23:48,336 --> 01:23:50,001 "It doesn't feel right." 1146 01:23:50,072 --> 01:23:52,097 inadvertently, Birdie gets up. 1147 01:23:53,475 --> 01:23:56,376 I remember him taking a few steps and went down in the water. 1148 01:23:56,445 --> 01:23:57,935 He fell? 1149 01:23:58,013 --> 01:23:59,952 I interpreted it as a fall or stumble or whatever. 1150 01:23:59,965 --> 01:24:01,915 As soon as he went down in the water, 1151 01:24:01,983 --> 01:24:05,009 at the same time that I seen that, officer Tursi's right with me. 1152 01:24:05,087 --> 01:24:07,214 I said, "Mike, I'm getting the kid," 1153 01:24:07,289 --> 01:24:09,257 and he said, "I got you covered." 1154 01:24:10,926 --> 01:24:12,951 I remember I went in underneath with my right hand, 1155 01:24:13,028 --> 01:24:15,758 and I scooped him underneath his left arm. 1156 01:24:15,831 --> 01:24:18,299 Was his head submerged under the water? 1157 01:24:18,367 --> 01:24:20,767 I don't remember. As soon as he hit the water, I went. 1158 01:24:39,554 --> 01:24:41,488 I remember as soon as I scooped him up, 1159 01:24:41,556 --> 01:24:44,957 he said to me, "Don't shoot me. Don't shoot me." 1160 01:24:56,138 --> 01:25:00,666 When the police got you after you finally got out, 1161 01:25:00,742 --> 01:25:02,812 did they ask you anything about whether or not 1162 01:25:02,825 --> 01:25:04,906 there were any kids still in the house... 1163 01:25:04,980 --> 01:25:06,971 or were there any other grown-ups still in the house? 1164 01:25:07,048 --> 01:25:08,379 Yeah. 1165 01:25:08,450 --> 01:25:10,884 - You said there were other kids still there? - Mm-hmm. 1166 01:25:10,952 --> 01:25:13,887 Do you remember who it was who was still in the house? 1167 01:25:13,955 --> 01:25:16,219 Tree, 1168 01:25:16,291 --> 01:25:18,122 Netta, 1169 01:25:18,193 --> 01:25:19,785 Tomaso and Melissa, 1170 01:25:19,861 --> 01:25:21,556 Phil, 1171 01:25:21,630 --> 01:25:25,122 and the big people were Theresa, Rhonda, 1172 01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:27,168 Paul, 1173 01:25:27,235 --> 01:25:29,669 Nick... 1174 01:25:29,738 --> 01:25:31,706 and Rad and C.K. 1175 01:26:08,143 --> 01:26:12,807 Ramona Africa, the MOVE spokesperson in recent weeks, is in police custody tonight. 1176 01:26:12,881 --> 01:26:15,145 She was captured outside the MOVE compound... 1177 01:26:15,217 --> 01:26:18,709 sometime after the massive fire broke out there this afternoon. 1178 01:26:18,787 --> 01:26:20,778 The child being treated here at Children's... 1179 01:26:20,856 --> 01:26:23,984 is suffering from second-and third-degree burns on his arms and legs. 1180 01:26:24,059 --> 01:26:27,379 All officials know at this point about his identity is that his last name is Africa. 1181 01:26:28,363 --> 01:26:30,490 All night long, an increasing number of firemen... 1182 01:26:30,565 --> 01:26:33,295 have been trying to battle what is now a six-alarm blaze. 1183 01:26:33,368 --> 01:26:36,166 There's a lot more water being trained on it, 1184 01:26:36,238 --> 01:26:39,435 but it looks as though this is going to burn for a long, long time. 1185 01:27:05,267 --> 01:27:07,258 We had a difficult problem. 1186 01:27:08,303 --> 01:27:10,203 We made a difficult decision. 1187 01:27:11,106 --> 01:27:15,042 It did not turn out as we intended. 1188 01:27:15,110 --> 01:27:18,102 As we face the coming days, 1189 01:27:18,179 --> 01:27:21,580 I ask your prayers for our city, 1190 01:27:21,650 --> 01:27:24,619 for the homeless families... 1191 01:27:24,686 --> 01:27:29,316 and for the families of those who've lost lives. 1192 01:27:54,115 --> 01:27:56,879 In the beginning, MOVE people... 1193 01:27:56,952 --> 01:28:01,582 were the most happiest bunch of people you could ever know. 1194 01:28:01,656 --> 01:28:07,458 We were a family, peaceful, loving. 1195 01:28:07,529 --> 01:28:10,020 And in the beginning, 1196 01:28:10,098 --> 01:28:12,896 MOVE was harassed a great deal. 1197 01:28:14,436 --> 01:28:19,032 We were beat many, many times. 1198 01:28:20,141 --> 01:28:25,374 We were jailed many, many times. 1199 01:28:26,681 --> 01:28:30,014 And I'm talking about a people... 1200 01:28:30,085 --> 01:28:33,680 who had feelings, 1201 01:28:33,755 --> 01:28:36,189 who are no different than you or I. 1202 01:28:54,042 --> 01:28:57,500 If the system can convict me of riot and conspiracy... 1203 01:28:57,579 --> 01:28:59,809 in a blatant situation like that... 1204 01:28:59,881 --> 01:29:05,046 where it's obvious to everybody, the whole world, that I did not riot, 1205 01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:08,578 then it should not be hard to imagine at all... 1206 01:29:08,657 --> 01:29:14,186 why and how this system convicted nine people of murdering one cop. 1207 01:29:14,262 --> 01:29:16,059 It's the same thing, 1208 01:29:16,131 --> 01:29:19,862 that the system had one intention in both confrontations, 1209 01:29:19,934 --> 01:29:25,031 to either kill MOVE people or to put us in prison as long as possible. 1210 01:29:25,106 --> 01:29:26,937 It's just that simple. 1211 01:29:37,585 --> 01:29:39,450 Was it like being in a war? 1212 01:29:40,588 --> 01:29:44,490 There's just too many things are going on, to sit here and just say how you felt. 1213 01:29:44,559 --> 01:29:46,231 We felt-l thought about the kids in the house. 1214 01:29:46,244 --> 01:29:47,926 I thought about my kids. 1215 01:29:47,996 --> 01:29:52,092 I thought about a lot of things. But to sit here-l don't know. 1216 01:29:52,167 --> 01:29:54,158 - I couldn't answer that. - Mm-hmm. 1217 01:29:56,971 --> 01:29:58,461 I am, uh- 1218 01:29:58,540 --> 01:30:03,239 I've, uh, been sitting here listening for many days... 1219 01:30:04,746 --> 01:30:11,174 and I've read scores of pages of reports and testimony. 1220 01:30:11,252 --> 01:30:15,086 And it has all been. All of it. 1221 01:30:15,156 --> 01:30:17,681 Uh, very depressing... 1222 01:30:17,759 --> 01:30:20,023 and very discouraging... 1223 01:30:20,095 --> 01:30:23,223 except what I've read about officer Berghaier... 1224 01:30:23,298 --> 01:30:26,290 and what I've heard from officer Berghaier. 1225 01:30:26,367 --> 01:30:31,168 And if there's any hope in this whole sorry situation, 1226 01:30:31,239 --> 01:30:32,973 it's because of that officer, and I wanna thank him. 1227 01:30:32,986 --> 01:30:34,731 Thank you, sir. 1228 01:30:58,700 --> 01:31:01,100 I think you've done such a good job. 1229 01:31:01,169 --> 01:31:03,160 I'm gonna stop my questions now, 1230 01:31:03,238 --> 01:31:07,299 and I wanna thank you for taking all this time to come in here and chat with us. 1231 01:31:07,375 --> 01:31:09,605 That will bring a smile to your face, won't it? 1232 01:31:09,677 --> 01:31:11,668 And I wanna thank your dad, Mr. Ward. 1233 01:31:11,746 --> 01:31:13,941 - Thank you very much for your cooperation. - You're quite welcome. 1234 01:31:14,015 --> 01:31:15,983 - And Mr. Shrager, of course. - Thank you. 1235 01:31:16,050 --> 01:31:20,987 This will conclude this deposition of testimony... 1236 01:31:21,055 --> 01:31:24,149 of Michael, uh, Ward. 1237 01:31:48,483 --> 01:31:50,474 As of today, 1238 01:31:50,552 --> 01:31:54,147 you the people, have all the principal facts... 1239 01:31:55,056 --> 01:31:57,991 which tell the story of the Osage Avenue tragedy. 1240 01:31:59,227 --> 01:32:03,220 Rarely has any community ever subjected itself... 1241 01:32:03,298 --> 01:32:06,096 to a public self-appraisal... 1242 01:32:06,167 --> 01:32:10,433 as painful and necessary as this has been. 1243 01:32:11,239 --> 01:32:14,902 But we believe that this process is absolutely necessary... 1244 01:32:14,976 --> 01:32:19,242 to prevent such a terrible thing from ever happening again. 1245 01:32:20,615 --> 01:32:24,415 And now I declare these public hearings... 1246 01:32:24,485 --> 01:32:27,613 to be in recess until further notice.