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Many claim a supplement has freed them
from a life of prescription pain pills,
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while others say it is a dangerous
unregulated substance.
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It's called kratom.
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What we're hoping to have today
is a meaningful discussion,
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and we have, joining us, a
panel of kratom proponents,
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documentary filmmaker, Chris Bell...
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[Chris Bell] Why does
this always happen to me?
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It seems like I always end up in the middle.
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In my first film, Bigger Stronger Faster,
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my brothers were both using steroids,
and I wasn't.
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I was stuck in the middle of following
the rules, or being the best.
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In my second film, Trophy Kids,
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I ended up in the middle of anxious parents
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living vicariously through their children's
sports dreams.
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[man] Pull your head out of your ass, dude,
seriously.
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Can you be any stupider? How dumb!
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[Chris] In Prescription Thugs,
I exposed Big Pharma...
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- [Chris] How many pills a day were you doing?
- Ninety.
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[Chris] ...as well as my own addiction
to opioid painkillers.
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See, the thing is, before I was a filmmaker,
I was a powerlifter
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and I wasn't half bad.
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Lifting gave me purpose.
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I was a shy, chubby kid.
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But when I started breaking records,
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and lifting more than my older brother
Mad Dog,
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people began to notice, and it felt good.
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I even got my little brother Smelly involved.
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At one point, we had so many trophies
from lifting,
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that we'd just throw them in the garbage.
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I no longer wanted to be like my heroes.
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I just wanted to be the
strongest man in the world.
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But what I didn't realize is, all
that wear and tear on the human body
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comes with a price.
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And, for me, that price was...
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Pain.
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[Chris] Shortly after Bigger Stronger Faster,
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I had both of my hips completely replaced
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due to a genetic condition.
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My dad had hip surgery at 17.
So, it runs in the family.
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This is a double hip replacement surgery.
And I'm only 35 years old.
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Sounds scary, right? Well, not for me.
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They told me I was going to
be walking the same day.
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This is what they mean
by walking the same day.
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I'm high on painkillers. So,
all I can picture is myself
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all jacked and tan, in a Rocky montage,
making a comeback.
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The more it hurt, the more pills I took.
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But when I was about to turn that corner
and run up the stairs,
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my brother Mad Dog died in a sober
living facility, at 37 years old.
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After seeing my brother die, and knowing
that drugs were at the core of it,
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you would think I would stop taking pills.
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But at that point, it was too late.
I was addicted.
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My life was going off the rails,
but I wasn't the only one.
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It seemed like our whole country
was popping pills.
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American account for the use of
approximately 99% of one specific opioid,
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a powerful painkiller called hydrocodone.
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Every day, 91 Americans die
from an overdose of opioids,
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which include prescription
painkillers and heroin.
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We know that four out of five new heroin users
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started on prescription pills.
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We saw more people die of drug overdoses
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than die of car accidents.
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[news anchor] In and around
Huntington, West Virginia,
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28 overdoses occurred in one five-hour span.
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[Chris] The point that everyone is missing
is that we don't have an opioid epidemic,
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we have a pain epidemic, and we're
just treating the wrong thing.
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You've been doing a documentary about
all the different components
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of addiction, of selling these pills,
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and yet, you still got sucked into their web.
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Yeah, exactly, that's how powerful it is.
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But you are about as educated
about it as a person can be.
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I think now I am.
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[Chris] During the making of Prescription
Thugs, the film was delayed,
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and the funding got pulled,
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and I didn't know how to handle it.
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I relapsed and ended up back on pills.
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They say you haven't made it in Hollywood
until you've been to rehab.
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So, I went out to Malibu
to face my demons head on.
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But after 90 days of rehab, and doing
everything that was asked of me,
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there was one big glaring problem
that rehab couldn't fix:
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I was still in pain.
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I had kicked my addiction and was
back on the straight and narrow.
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I began searching for alternatives
to relieve my pain.
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So, after I got done with the opioids,
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I was on Dr. Drew's show,
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and he said, "Well, you should try Advil
and Tylenol in combination."
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"That's going to be better than an opioid
for your chronic pain."
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So, I said, "Okay." I start trying that.
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Then I get a phone call from my friend
who lives in England,
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who tells me he just had a kidney transplant
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because of all the NSAIDs he was taking.
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[Chris] NSAIDs are non-steroidal
anti-inflammatories.
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Things like the painkillers found
in Advil, Aleve, and aspirin.
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So, what's the answer? Am I supposed to just
live with the pain?
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Then I get a call from a familiar voice.
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It's good to see you. I missed you, man.
I haven't seen you in so long.
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- We haven't even talked in a while.
- What's up?
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[Chris] My friend Horshu said he'd discovered
the holy grail,
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a natural painkiller that won't kill you,
called kratom.
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- [Chris] When did you start taking it?
- About nine months ago. Yeah.
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- And how do you feel?
- I feel great.
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Yeah, so we talked in Prescription Thugs,
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you had "a massive, massive, massive stroke,"
in the words of your doctor.
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- Does it help with that?
- It helped me immensely.
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- How do you handle pain?
- I take kratom.
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- How did you handle it before?
- Look, man, I would stand up,
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I'd stand up, I'd walk like this.
You remember.
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I'd be walking like this.
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You know what I mean? Hunched
over for 20 minutes,
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- you know what I mean? Walking slow.
- Yes, slowly...
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Now I just stand up... Stand up, walk around.
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You know, when that study came out,
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- I was like, "65 wrestlers under the age of 50..."
- [Wiese] Yeah.
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- ..."have died. And they blame steroids all the time, right?"
- Yeah. [scoffs]
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It's not steroids. It's the wrong combination
of drugs.
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It's probably alcohol with Vicodin,
with cocaine, you know what I mean?
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[Kurt Angle] I knew as long as I
stuffed myself with painkillers,
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I couldn't feel it, and I
couldn't feel the pain.
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And I would go as long as I could
until my body couldn't go anymore.
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Yeah, Vicodin and vodka
were my closest friends.
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- [Reporter] Wow.
- And my closest enemies.
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Once I had the stroke, I refused to go back
to pain pills.
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You know, before I had the stroke,
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I was doing about 90 pain
pills a day for seven years.
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And then when I had the
stroke, when I recovered,
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I refused to go back to pain pills.
And I found kratom.
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[Chris] Horshu pointed us to Vegas to meet
his friend Kelly,
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who's been selling kratom since 2010.
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He owns one of the top kratom companies
in the country. I used to be into boats
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and boatracing, and so forth,
and I was in an accident
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where, you know, I broke my orbital,
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and broke the right side of
my face in a boat crash.
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When I went to the doctor, especially for
the orbital, there is nothing they can do.
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So, they give me pain medication.
They give me Percocets.
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And he gave me, I want to say 60 pills,
with three refills.
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- Worst off, I'd need it for...
- Yeah, a week.
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Yeah, a week maybe.
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Maybe four or five days, maybe.
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Like everybody else, I
started taking the Percs,
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and they kinda become a habit for me.
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Then you start thinking about, "Well, shit,"
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"my day might not function quite as well"
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"if I don't take this, I better take it."
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It led to the point where now when I
wanted to stop, I was going to get sick.
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Somebody had introduced me to kratom. I
was involved in the head shop industry.
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I owned a couple of smoke shops at the time.
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And introduced to kratom,
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and it was a real easy transition
out of the Percocets.
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What's so special about this stuff?
Why should we care about kratom?
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[Dunn] You know, for one, because it's
been so helpful to so many people.
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We know that it's been a medicinal plant
for hundreds of years.
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There were tribes in Indonesia that used
to build their village
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around a series of kratom trees,
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because it was central to their way of life.
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[Chris] So, if people have been using this
for hundreds of years,
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Why have I never heard of it?
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Dr. Darshan Singh has been studying
the traditional uses of kratom
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in his homeland of Malaysia
for over ten years.
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I've been spending a lot of time
on kratom research in Malaysia,
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and in Malaysia I'm known as Dr. kratom,
okay?
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So, I'd been going in, trying to understand
why people use kratom.
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If I were to make my own kratom tea
for personal consumption,
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I would just have to go behind my house and
just pluck maybe like about 20 leaves,
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just brew it, and I would just switch off
the fire,
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and then allow it to cool down, and
then just consume it the whole day.
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So, you guys don't have an
opioid crisis like we have...
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Oh, we have opioid addiction problem.
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People are using kratom to
self-treat opioid abuse,
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alcohol abuse, and crystal meth abuse.
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You can actually use kratom
to treat chronic pain.
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And you can also use it to
treat opioid addiction,
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because opioid addiction is
also associated with pain.
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In traditional settings,
those who are using kratom,
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they are not labeled or stereotyped
as drug addicts or drug users.
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They do not engage in criminal behavior.
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If you were to compare heroin or
morphine users on the street,
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they do engage in risky behaviors,
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they do commit crime, because they have
to support their addictive behaviors.
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While kratom users, in traditional settings,
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they use kratom for medicinal purpose.
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And people living in Southeast Asia,
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like from where I'm coming, Malaysia,
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people have been using kratom
for over 200 years, okay?
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And you need to make sure that you have
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genuine distributors of
kratom in the United States.
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[Chris] If kratom is so great, then why
haven't I seen it on store shelves?
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Probably 'cause you can't get it
at your local pharmacy or GNC.
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For now, you have to venture
into your local smoke shop.
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And that's not usually
where I get my medicine.
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So, this is more what I would picture,
like, a supplement to look like.
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Yeah.
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[speaks indistinctly]
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Yeah.
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Happy kratom.
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I was in the army for six years, and I have
friends with PTSD, who...
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They give them this drug and that drug,
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and they all have bad side effects,
and they get hooked on them.
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But they can use this, not get hooked on it,
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and not have all the bad effects.
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I'm not going to say it's
going to cure it 100%.
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But it helps them live day-to-day
without having an outburst,
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or having a flashback.
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- It just lets them have a normal life.
- [Chris] Yeah.
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[Rezvani] I work seven days a week,
and my feet, trust me, they kill me.
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- [chuckles]
- And then I take it, and after, like, half an hour,
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it's a different feeling. I
don't feel that pain anymore.
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And it makes it easier for
me to go on with my day.
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[Chris] Okay, so people take kratom
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because they want to self-medicate.
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But before I try it, I wanted to
talk to an expert on this stuff.
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So, I found Dr. Schoenwetter.
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He has a lot of patients come to him
to ween off of opiates.
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And often times, he recommends kratom.
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He's also been tracking the progress
of over 100 of his patients
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that are taking the plant.
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There are so many compounds within the plant,
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that the plant itself is a virtual pharmacy.
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The beauty of this, of course,
is that you don't need me
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to write it on a piece of paper.
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You can just get it yourself.
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So, it's a great backup tool if you
need something with a little more
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oomph than leaf.
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There's a thing called affinity,
and a thing called activity.
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Affinity is how much substance
will stick to a receptor.
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So, if you can imagine having superglue
on your finger,
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- and touching a piano key...
- [plays note]
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...you've got a very high degree of affinity.
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But activity... [laughs] Even
though you're stuck to the key,
228
00:11:57,258 --> 00:12:01,304
- you may not be able to press the key very loud.
- [plays note]
229
00:12:01,346 --> 00:12:05,559
Kratom seems to have a high affinity
230
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,936
for some of the opioid receptors,
but it has a ceiling
231
00:12:08,978 --> 00:12:12,190
and so, it has a limited activity.
[chuckles]
232
00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:15,902
It's not dangerous. But heroin,
or a strong opiate,
233
00:12:15,943 --> 00:12:18,029
can push the key to make it really loud.
234
00:12:18,071 --> 00:12:20,990
[loud discordant notes]
235
00:12:22,783 --> 00:12:26,829
Whereas buprenorphine and kratom aren't able
to make it as loud.
236
00:12:26,871 --> 00:12:30,667
They're stuck to the key, but they
can't make it play as loud. [chuckles]
237
00:12:31,626 --> 00:12:33,211
I'm taking it today
238
00:12:33,253 --> 00:12:35,796
because I've had problems with arthritis
and a knee effusion.
239
00:12:35,838 --> 00:12:38,675
So, I'm able now to get off the walker,
240
00:12:38,717 --> 00:12:42,136
and get off the offloader knee brace,
and I'm back to myself.
241
00:12:42,178 --> 00:12:45,223
So, tell me how you came across kratom.
242
00:12:45,265 --> 00:12:48,059
I got introduced to it as the guy
243
00:12:48,101 --> 00:12:49,894
who was putting gas in the car.
244
00:12:49,936 --> 00:12:51,938
My wife had a migraine headache.
245
00:12:51,979 --> 00:12:55,358
She said, "Well, I'll go dig up
something here at the station."
246
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,776
At that time, a lady of the evening
was stepping in.
247
00:12:57,818 --> 00:13:00,321
And reached behind by the cigarettes,
248
00:13:00,363 --> 00:13:03,658
and alcohol, and pulled out a packet
of kratom.
249
00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:06,494
My wife immediately said, "What's that?"
250
00:13:06,536 --> 00:13:09,956
The kind lady said, "It makes a lot
of the aches and pains just go away."
251
00:13:09,997 --> 00:13:11,583
Karen says, "I'll take one."
252
00:13:11,625 --> 00:13:13,834
Got in the car and said, "Phil,
what do you know about this?"
253
00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:18,339
I know nothing. Absolutely nothing.
254
00:13:18,381 --> 00:13:23,511
I drove on. We headed south, and
about 65 miles later, she said,
255
00:13:23,553 --> 00:13:25,597
"Phil, the headache's gone."
256
00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:28,558
I said, "Really?" I said, "Do you feel drowsy,
dopey, sleepy?"
257
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:29,892
"No, I want to drive down."
258
00:13:29,934 --> 00:13:32,437
Have you seen a lot of
side effects with kratom?
259
00:13:33,772 --> 00:13:36,441
Gastrointestinal is the
predominant side effect.
260
00:13:36,483 --> 00:13:39,444
I took a whole bag myself
just to push the limits,
261
00:13:39,486 --> 00:13:42,280
to see if I was giving anyone a toxic dose.
262
00:13:42,322 --> 00:13:44,365
I got constipated.
263
00:13:44,407 --> 00:13:46,200
- That's about it?
- That's it.
264
00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:49,120
[Chris] Dr. Schoenwetter assured
me that kratom was safe.
265
00:13:49,162 --> 00:13:51,247
But let's check out the science.
266
00:13:51,289 --> 00:13:56,711
Went to pharmacy school to understand
what it is about drugs
267
00:13:56,753 --> 00:14:00,548
that can make us heal, or can hurt us.
268
00:14:00,590 --> 00:14:02,592
[Chris] This is Dr. Chris McCurdy.
269
00:14:02,634 --> 00:14:05,219
He is a professor at the
University of Florida,
270
00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:07,846
and the world-leading expert on kratom.
271
00:14:07,888 --> 00:14:11,351
[McCurdy] We kind of relate the abuse
potential of the plant itself,
272
00:14:11,392 --> 00:14:13,561
kind of similar to that of coffee.
273
00:14:13,603 --> 00:14:16,314
And it's interesting, 'cause
it's in the coffee family.
274
00:14:16,356 --> 00:14:18,941
And so what we've done is
systematically gone through,
275
00:14:18,983 --> 00:14:21,402
as I mentioned, looking at
the individual compounds,
276
00:14:21,444 --> 00:14:24,364
and started taking out certain alkaloids
277
00:14:24,405 --> 00:14:26,991
that we thought might be responsible
for that effect.
278
00:14:27,033 --> 00:14:29,661
And we've got down to a modified extract
279
00:14:29,703 --> 00:14:32,079
that didn't show any side effects on its own.
280
00:14:32,121 --> 00:14:33,956
What's different about kratom
281
00:14:33,998 --> 00:14:37,669
is the fact that it not only interacts
with that new opioid receptor,
282
00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,463
it also interacts with dopamine receptors.
283
00:14:40,505 --> 00:14:42,382
So, when you activate dopamine systems,
284
00:14:42,423 --> 00:14:44,091
you feel pleasurable, you feel good.
285
00:14:44,133 --> 00:14:46,886
We ran the most comprehensive target screen
on it
286
00:14:46,927 --> 00:14:50,139
that's ever been published, and we came back
with this profile
287
00:14:50,181 --> 00:14:53,643
that says serotonin, dopamine,
alpha-adrenergic, and opioid.
288
00:14:53,685 --> 00:14:57,313
And I was like, "Holy cow,
this is maybe the one drug
289
00:14:57,355 --> 00:15:01,067
that could really treat opioid addiction
290
00:15:01,108 --> 00:15:04,070
in a single chemical entity.
291
00:15:04,111 --> 00:15:06,656
There may be a cure for the pain.
292
00:15:06,698 --> 00:15:08,324
We think we're well on our way.
293
00:15:08,366 --> 00:15:10,869
We get these mice addicted to morphine
294
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:14,664
if we give them a antagonist, Naloxone,
295
00:15:14,706 --> 00:15:17,166
they will go into full withdrawal.
296
00:15:17,208 --> 00:15:19,377
What we call "wet dog shakes,"
297
00:15:19,419 --> 00:15:22,714
just like when a dog gets out of a pond
and dries itself off,
298
00:15:22,756 --> 00:15:24,549
- but these animals aren't wet.
- Yeah.
299
00:15:24,591 --> 00:15:29,095
They'll chatter their teeth. You
can literally hear them, the mice.
300
00:15:29,136 --> 00:15:32,265
And then they'll have paw tremors.
301
00:15:32,306 --> 00:15:36,102
Most of the animals don't have very severe
withdrawal after methadone,
302
00:15:36,143 --> 00:15:40,940
but the issue with methadone is
they've continued to lose weight.
303
00:15:40,981 --> 00:15:44,193
And so, it seems that the methadone
304
00:15:44,235 --> 00:15:49,783
is taking over their normal
innate behavior to want to eat
305
00:15:49,824 --> 00:15:54,370
versus the animals that we habituate to
morphine, and then switch over to kratom.
306
00:15:54,412 --> 00:15:56,497
They return to eating normally.
307
00:15:56,539 --> 00:16:00,960
And their body weight comes back to
what it was when we started with them.
308
00:16:01,001 --> 00:16:04,088
Or, a little bit above, which
is where you'd wanna be,
309
00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:06,716
'cause we're using these animals
in their growth phase.
310
00:16:06,758 --> 00:16:08,259
[Chris] As a scientist studying it,
311
00:16:08,301 --> 00:16:10,470
- do you try it yourself?
- [McCurdy] I've never tried it.
312
00:16:10,511 --> 00:16:12,555
We've brewed teas in the lab,
313
00:16:12,597 --> 00:16:15,809
but from the science standpoint, I
don't want to be dated or biased
314
00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:17,685
in my opinion of it.
315
00:16:17,727 --> 00:16:20,020
- [Chris] Have you ever tried it?
- Yeah, I have.
316
00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,357
- And what was your effects?
- Mild mood elevation.
317
00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:26,486
And I'm not in pain, so it's hard to comment
on any analgesic effects.
318
00:16:26,527 --> 00:16:27,612
Yeah.
319
00:16:27,654 --> 00:16:29,280
Kratom represents a great starting point
320
00:16:29,322 --> 00:16:31,991
for developing new, safer pain relievers
321
00:16:32,032 --> 00:16:34,911
to replace the opioids that we have now
on the market.
322
00:16:34,953 --> 00:16:41,208
And also, potential implications for treating
mood disorders like depression and anxiety.
323
00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:43,085
But these are a bit ratty-looking.
324
00:16:43,127 --> 00:16:45,296
[chuckles] Does it smell?
325
00:16:46,881 --> 00:16:48,842
- Smells like leaves.
- Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, wow.
326
00:16:48,883 --> 00:16:50,802
- So, that's all it is, huh?
- [Kruegel] Yeah.
327
00:16:52,846 --> 00:16:55,473
And this is the mitragynine.
328
00:16:55,515 --> 00:16:58,643
So, that's what it looks
like, it's just a powder.
329
00:16:58,685 --> 00:17:01,688
So, what you do is you make it, and
then you just run tests on it?
330
00:17:01,729 --> 00:17:05,441
[Kruegel] Yeah, we run tests in cells,
and we run tests on animals, so...
331
00:17:05,483 --> 00:17:07,986
And we try to extrapolate from that to humans,
332
00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:09,946
but of course, there's limits to that.
333
00:17:09,988 --> 00:17:13,616
So, this is what it looks like when it
still has the chlorophyll impurities.
334
00:17:13,658 --> 00:17:15,242
- It's green like the leaf.
- [Chris] Yeah.
335
00:17:15,284 --> 00:17:17,036
Well, what's your goal? What
do you wanna do with it?
336
00:17:17,077 --> 00:17:19,497
My goal is to make all these analogues
337
00:17:19,539 --> 00:17:22,583
and try to come up with a better version
of the compounds
338
00:17:22,625 --> 00:17:24,460
that are out there in the plant itself.
339
00:17:24,502 --> 00:17:27,505
And eventually, bring that to market
as an FDA-approved drug...
340
00:17:27,547 --> 00:17:29,382
- [Chris] Sure.
- ...to replace oxycodone
341
00:17:29,423 --> 00:17:31,300
and the strong painkillers.
342
00:17:31,342 --> 00:17:34,178
I mean, I think there's a place for
both, you know, new pharmaceuticals
343
00:17:34,220 --> 00:17:37,724
that we develop synthetically, starting from
the kratom alkaloids,
344
00:17:37,765 --> 00:17:41,519
and also for kratom itself to be legal.
There's no reason they can't co-exist.
345
00:17:41,561 --> 00:17:44,898
'Cause I really think they're addressing
different issues.
346
00:17:44,939 --> 00:17:47,066
[Chris] This is Kratom 101.
347
00:17:47,107 --> 00:17:50,152
Kratom comes from the
plant Mitragyna speciosa.
348
00:17:50,194 --> 00:17:53,781
It's a plant in the coffee family
that grows in Southeast Asia.
349
00:17:53,823 --> 00:17:57,535
The kratom plant has been chewed, ground up,
or drank as a tea
350
00:17:57,577 --> 00:18:01,247
for over 2,000 years in traditional
and religious rituals,
351
00:18:01,288 --> 00:18:04,042
with zero history of fatal poisonings
or deaths,
352
00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:06,044
and very little known abuse.
353
00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:08,546
Kratom is made up of over 40 alkaloids.
354
00:18:08,588 --> 00:18:12,675
What are alkaloids? Alkaloids are the active
ingredient in the plant.
355
00:18:12,717 --> 00:18:15,386
Caffeine is an alkaloid of coffee or tea.
356
00:18:15,428 --> 00:18:19,223
The active alkaloids in kratom that are
responsible for its health effects
357
00:18:19,265 --> 00:18:23,352
are mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine.
358
00:18:23,394 --> 00:18:27,690
The way the plant is set up, at low doses,
it works like a good cup of coffee.
359
00:18:27,732 --> 00:18:31,402
At high doses, it works like
a mild opioid painkiller.
360
00:18:31,444 --> 00:18:35,031
These alkaloids affect what is called
the Mu Opioid Receptor.
361
00:18:35,073 --> 00:18:38,117
That's in your brain. What else does it do?
362
00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:41,079
Well, nothing that's actually been
studied on humans,
363
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,456
but it's been reported
to lower blood pressure,
364
00:18:43,497 --> 00:18:46,084
relieve pain, boost metabolism,
365
00:18:46,125 --> 00:18:49,087
improve your immune system, ease anxiety,
366
00:18:49,128 --> 00:18:51,672
help with addiction, eliminate stress,
367
00:18:51,714 --> 00:18:54,592
prevent diabetes, induce healthy sleep,
368
00:18:54,634 --> 00:18:56,761
and improve sexual energy.
369
00:18:56,803 --> 00:18:59,889
These statements have not been evaluated
by the FDA. We were talking about, what,
370
00:19:01,975 --> 00:19:05,061
I think we say, kratom?
371
00:19:05,103 --> 00:19:06,938
- [Shane Mauss] Yeah, yeah.
- It's called kratom.
372
00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:08,982
I'm gonna take some right now.
373
00:19:09,023 --> 00:19:13,152
It takes, like, an hour to kick in, and so...
And this is a very mild dose.
374
00:19:13,193 --> 00:19:17,281
It is 12:23. At 1:23, I'm going to start
asking weird questions.
375
00:19:17,323 --> 00:19:21,744
[Chris] Comedian Shane Mauss used kratom
to help him after a nasty accident.
376
00:19:21,786 --> 00:19:26,040
About three years ago, I was out hiking.
Best shape of my life.
377
00:19:26,082 --> 00:19:30,169
And I jumped off a thing
that was much too high.
378
00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:34,632
And I broke both my heels,
one of them exploded.
379
00:19:34,674 --> 00:19:36,884
Had to crawl down a mountain for a few hours.
380
00:19:36,926 --> 00:19:39,178
That's doctor's words, is that it exploded.
381
00:19:39,219 --> 00:19:41,973
I was like, "Really? That's your diagnosis?"
382
00:19:42,015 --> 00:19:44,266
[laughs] Says my heel exploded.
383
00:19:44,308 --> 00:19:47,979
- [Chris] They must have had you on opioids, right?
- They did, yeah.
384
00:19:48,021 --> 00:19:50,356
I remember the day I got
my first shot of morphine,
385
00:19:50,397 --> 00:19:53,109
and right away, I was like, "Whoa! I get it."
386
00:19:53,151 --> 00:19:55,361
"I get why people like this."
387
00:19:55,402 --> 00:19:58,238
I don't understand how
both of my feet are broken
388
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,743
and this is the best I've ever felt
in my entire life.
389
00:20:02,785 --> 00:20:04,996
I don't see how that's a legal thing.
390
00:20:05,038 --> 00:20:08,749
This is all pretty numb in here.
It's coming back.
391
00:20:08,791 --> 00:20:10,417
It feels better all the time.
392
00:20:10,459 --> 00:20:15,339
The reason why I'm wearing these
baby-skinned bootsies
393
00:20:15,381 --> 00:20:17,925
is because my girlfriend
picked them out for me.
394
00:20:17,967 --> 00:20:21,971
- And she controls the puss distribution.
- [audience laughing]
395
00:20:22,013 --> 00:20:28,019
I was just complaining about my dumb foot
to a bunch of comics,
396
00:20:28,061 --> 00:20:31,022
and they were like, "Oh, you should go
to the kratom bar,"
397
00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:32,523
and I was like, "What's that?"
398
00:20:33,482 --> 00:20:34,942
They're like, "Oh, it's this...
399
00:20:34,984 --> 00:20:37,444
It's supposed to be good for pain relief,
400
00:20:37,486 --> 00:20:40,406
and it's some natural thing.
401
00:20:40,447 --> 00:20:42,783
And you can go to a bar and drink it."
402
00:20:42,825 --> 00:20:47,580
And I found out that it's legal, and I
was like, "Eh, it's probably no good."
403
00:20:52,919 --> 00:20:55,922
Roots and leaves in a traditional bilo cup.
404
00:20:55,963 --> 00:20:58,382
That's Komodo. That's our bestseller.
405
00:21:03,637 --> 00:21:06,599
[Chris exclaims]
406
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,186
[James Scianno] Earthy notes
with an oaky finish, huh?
407
00:21:10,228 --> 00:21:12,312
Oh, that was bad. Ugh.
408
00:21:12,354 --> 00:21:14,857
[Chris] Earthy notes means
it tastes like dirt.
409
00:21:14,899 --> 00:21:18,402
But after about 30 minutes, I began noticing
that I was more focused,
410
00:21:18,444 --> 00:21:21,781
more alert, and more important, out of pain.
411
00:21:21,822 --> 00:21:25,659
And all of a sudden, I could walk
like a normal person.
412
00:21:25,701 --> 00:21:28,370
Like, I hadn't walked so
well since my accident
413
00:21:28,412 --> 00:21:32,750
in two-and-a-half years, or whatever it was
at that point.
414
00:21:32,792 --> 00:21:37,922
And I was like, "This is amazing.
What is this stuff?"
415
00:21:37,964 --> 00:21:43,302
There was one other place, a head shop
in Chicago, which sold it in 2006.
416
00:21:43,343 --> 00:21:45,721
Then we started. You know, we were looking
for different herbs.
417
00:21:45,763 --> 00:21:50,726
That's what we sell here, raw indigenous herbs
and beverages.
418
00:21:50,768 --> 00:21:52,603
And then we try kratom, and people are like,
419
00:21:52,645 --> 00:21:54,396
"Hey, what was that stuff you had?"
420
00:21:54,438 --> 00:21:56,107
And we started ordering it.
421
00:21:56,149 --> 00:21:59,777
You're basically just grinding raw leaf...
422
00:21:59,819 --> 00:22:02,947
- put it in water, or juice, or whatever,
- Yep. Kava.
423
00:22:02,989 --> 00:22:04,406
- [Chris] And yeah, kava.
- [Scianno] Kava root.
424
00:22:04,448 --> 00:22:06,075
[Chris] Just making drinks, right?
425
00:22:06,117 --> 00:22:08,786
[Scianno] It's as raw as you get,
it's raw as you get.
426
00:22:08,828 --> 00:22:10,537
[Chris] What's it do for you?
427
00:22:10,579 --> 00:22:14,374
It's, like, a calm energy you can
get, just a focused, clear mind.
428
00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:17,962
It's relaxing, but it's stimulating
at the same time.
429
00:22:18,004 --> 00:22:21,507
It's nice to come here and have a place to go
instead of going to the bar.
430
00:22:21,548 --> 00:22:25,636
- Exactly, just somewhere to go, mellow. So...
- [Chris] Yeah.
431
00:22:25,678 --> 00:22:27,221
How often do you come here?
432
00:22:27,263 --> 00:22:30,975
Um, I come here kind of every day.
433
00:22:31,017 --> 00:22:32,768
I used to take Adderall.
434
00:22:32,810 --> 00:22:35,395
I don't take it anymore. I took it all through
growing up and stuff.
435
00:22:35,437 --> 00:22:38,649
Yeah, it just takes the edge off in general,
you know.
436
00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:43,361
If you're feeling kinda tense, which
I usually am for whatever reason.
437
00:22:43,403 --> 00:22:46,740
[Chris] Wow, kratom looks like a game changer.
438
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:51,037
But then I turned on the news, and things
started looking a little different.
439
00:22:51,078 --> 00:22:56,917
I should have known, if something sounds
too good to be true, it probably is.
440
00:22:56,959 --> 00:22:59,503
...Feds gearing up for a kratom crackdown.
441
00:22:59,545 --> 00:23:01,005
Don't know the drug?
442
00:23:01,047 --> 00:23:03,381
You should. You can actually
buy it in stores right now.
443
00:23:03,423 --> 00:23:06,052
[reporter] It comes in
pills, powder, and liquid.
444
00:23:06,093 --> 00:23:10,931
And in one month, the DEA is ordering kratom
off all store shelves,
445
00:23:10,973 --> 00:23:12,975
putting it on the same level as heroin.
446
00:23:13,017 --> 00:23:15,519
Kratom can be purchased
over the counter right now,
447
00:23:15,561 --> 00:23:17,021
but in a month, it'll be illegal.
448
00:23:17,063 --> 00:23:18,522
Dave, right now it looks like I'm holding
449
00:23:18,564 --> 00:23:20,941
a vitamin supplement, but a month from now,
450
00:23:20,983 --> 00:23:23,861
this will look an awful lot
like felony possession.
451
00:23:23,903 --> 00:23:26,655
[Chris] On August 30th, 2016,
452
00:23:26,697 --> 00:23:30,117
the DEA issued a notice of
an intent to ban kratom.
453
00:23:30,159 --> 00:23:33,120
The FDA has decided
454
00:23:33,162 --> 00:23:37,041
it's in Schedule I, therefore,
because it has no medical value,
455
00:23:37,083 --> 00:23:39,335
there is a high potential for abuse.
456
00:23:39,377 --> 00:23:40,711
And most importantly,
457
00:23:40,753 --> 00:23:43,589
we're now getting data from
folks around the country,
458
00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:46,342
that people are dying from kratom overdoses.
459
00:23:46,384 --> 00:23:48,135
[Chris] They cited 15 deaths
460
00:23:48,177 --> 00:23:50,888
and over 600 calls to poison control centers,
461
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:53,391
which deemed it a national health emergency.
462
00:23:54,892 --> 00:23:57,103
[dramatic music playing]
463
00:23:58,729 --> 00:24:01,815
- [officer] Freeze!
- [gasps] Hey, guys, guys, it's only vitamins.
464
00:24:01,857 --> 00:24:05,778
[Chris] The DEA said they wanted
no public opinion on the matter.
465
00:24:05,819 --> 00:24:09,115
But we live in the era of
Twitter and Joe Rogan.
466
00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:11,742
And the Internet responded.
467
00:24:11,784 --> 00:24:15,371
And apparently it helps a lot of people
that have heroin addiction problems
468
00:24:15,413 --> 00:24:16,830
and opioid addiction problems.
469
00:24:16,872 --> 00:24:19,292
And now, all of a sudden,
people are going to have to go
470
00:24:19,333 --> 00:24:21,835
right back to finding
whatever they used to take.
471
00:24:21,877 --> 00:24:25,714
Go to the link below to find your senator
and drop them an email tonight.
472
00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:27,841
But the worst thing the DEA said to me was,
473
00:24:27,883 --> 00:24:30,136
where they noted that their biggest concern
with kratom
474
00:24:30,177 --> 00:24:34,640
was the fact that some people were using it
as an alternative to heroin and opioids.
475
00:24:36,392 --> 00:24:39,561
No fucking shit.
476
00:24:39,603 --> 00:24:42,315
I'm Kristin Jacobs, mayor of Broward County...
477
00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:44,650
[Chris] But not everybody is so pro-kratom.
478
00:24:44,691 --> 00:24:46,693
Meet Kristin Jacobs.
479
00:24:46,735 --> 00:24:49,322
She's on a mission to ban kratom in Florida.
480
00:24:49,363 --> 00:24:51,615
And it looked like she was doing
a pretty good job.
481
00:24:51,657 --> 00:24:53,867
[reporter] Broward State
representative Kristin Jacobs
482
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:55,911
even compares it to heroin.
483
00:24:55,953 --> 00:25:01,125
So, I think it is a tragedy what's happening
in this country, the addiction.
484
00:25:01,167 --> 00:25:04,628
And the stigma that's associated with it,
and the cost of recovery.
485
00:25:04,670 --> 00:25:07,756
And the horrific withdrawal
that you go through.
486
00:25:07,798 --> 00:25:11,427
It's a horrible, horrible
thing to have to experience.
487
00:25:11,469 --> 00:25:13,637
I promised you that by today,
488
00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:16,807
I would basically send around a blizzard
of information
489
00:25:16,849 --> 00:25:20,394
as many of you have not heard
of the word kratom before.
490
00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:25,024
To me, the effects of kratom mimic the effects
of opioid drugs.
491
00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:26,608
This is not prescribed.
492
00:25:26,650 --> 00:25:29,903
This has not been tested by the Food and Drug
Administration.
493
00:25:29,945 --> 00:25:32,198
In detox, several people offer kratom.
494
00:25:32,239 --> 00:25:34,908
I will tell you, it is harder to
detox somebody off of kratom,
495
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:36,576
than it is to detox somebody off of heroin.
496
00:25:36,618 --> 00:25:39,537
And then they also say
that it is not addictive.
497
00:25:39,579 --> 00:25:41,457
It's no more addictive than a cup of coffee.
498
00:25:41,499 --> 00:25:44,626
But when you talk to doctors and you talk
to the scientists,
499
00:25:44,668 --> 00:25:46,753
and you talk to those epidemiologists
500
00:25:46,795 --> 00:25:49,048
that have been following this drug
and the claims of others,
501
00:25:49,089 --> 00:25:51,591
you see that, in fact,
those claims are not true.
502
00:25:51,633 --> 00:25:54,678
And then you start to talk
to people who've used it,
503
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,848
- people who've lost loved ones too.
- Sure.
504
00:25:57,890 --> 00:25:59,641
And their stories are significantly different.
505
00:25:59,683 --> 00:26:02,811
Is there a way to keep this on the market
while we research it more?
506
00:26:02,853 --> 00:26:05,523
You know what, I understand when
someone's addicted to a drug,
507
00:26:05,563 --> 00:26:07,565
they don't want someone to
come take the drug away.
508
00:26:07,607 --> 00:26:09,318
The pain of recovery
509
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,696
and withdrawals from any drug is
a horrific thing to go through,
510
00:26:12,738 --> 00:26:15,074
- and it's a horrific thing for any family to see.
- Sure.
511
00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:17,284
The fact that those that are using it,
512
00:26:17,326 --> 00:26:19,412
will tell you that it's not addictive
513
00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:21,080
and they can get off at any time,
514
00:26:21,121 --> 00:26:23,916
that's the voice of
addiction telling you that.
515
00:26:23,957 --> 00:26:26,252
Generally, what happens is
516
00:26:26,293 --> 00:26:29,422
the money that you need to buy those drugs
soon runs out,
517
00:26:29,463 --> 00:26:31,465
and so you start finding
other ways to find dollars.
518
00:26:31,507 --> 00:26:35,302
You may take it from your family
or other easier opportunities...
519
00:26:35,344 --> 00:26:37,054
I haven't read anything about that.
520
00:26:37,096 --> 00:26:38,931
I've researched this every single day
since we started this project.
521
00:26:38,972 --> 00:26:43,018
I haven't heard people stealing money or doing
anything, like, illegal,
522
00:26:43,060 --> 00:26:44,228
to get this drug.
523
00:26:44,270 --> 00:26:46,230
Now, that's unfortunate, that's unfortunate.
524
00:26:46,272 --> 00:26:48,148
'Cause I believe you'll
talk to someone tomorrow
525
00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:50,443
that has, that you'll
interview that did just that.
526
00:26:50,484 --> 00:26:53,153
He was stealing from the family.
527
00:26:53,195 --> 00:26:56,782
He'd already ripped me off
for, you know, 400 bucks,
528
00:26:56,823 --> 00:26:58,867
taken my debit card,
529
00:26:58,909 --> 00:27:01,161
and he drove to the top of that overpass
530
00:27:01,203 --> 00:27:03,663
which was just a two-minute drive.
531
00:27:03,705 --> 00:27:06,500
He got out of the car, he
walked across the street,
532
00:27:06,542 --> 00:27:08,668
to the south-bound side,
533
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:11,629
took off his sandals and dove head first.
534
00:27:11,671 --> 00:27:13,257
[reporter] Ian Mautner's autopsy report
535
00:27:13,299 --> 00:27:16,218
showed an unknown amount of
what's called mitragynine,
536
00:27:16,260 --> 00:27:18,095
the active ingredient in kratom.
537
00:27:18,137 --> 00:27:20,638
Also listed, a number of antidepressants.
538
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,016
Linda believes it was Ian's addiction
to kratom
539
00:27:23,058 --> 00:27:25,060
that ultimately sent him over the edge.
540
00:27:25,102 --> 00:27:27,229
[Mautner] He was the kind of kid
that I could trust.
541
00:27:27,271 --> 00:27:29,773
He always told me everything.
542
00:27:29,815 --> 00:27:31,900
- We were super, super close.
- [Chris] Mm-hmm.
543
00:27:31,942 --> 00:27:34,445
And he invited me to the kava bar.
544
00:27:34,487 --> 00:27:38,532
He was spending a lot of money there,
like about 50 bucks a day.
545
00:27:38,574 --> 00:27:41,118
And when I went there, I
didn't know what kratom was.
546
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,744
You know, I had a drink...
547
00:27:42,786 --> 00:27:44,955
A couple of times I went down there
and had a drink.
548
00:27:44,997 --> 00:27:47,416
I actually called my sponsor
549
00:27:47,458 --> 00:27:50,752
and I said, "You know, I tried this stuff.
Ian's doing this a lot."
550
00:27:50,794 --> 00:27:52,546
And she said, "You need to be careful,
551
00:27:52,588 --> 00:27:54,798
you know, because that doesn't sound good."
552
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,675
- So, how long have you been sober for?
- For 22 years now.
553
00:27:57,717 --> 00:27:59,470
- Congratulations. That's amazing.
- Thanks.
554
00:27:59,512 --> 00:28:03,015
And I said, "Ian, if you're doing drugs,
this is really bad",
555
00:28:03,056 --> 00:28:05,434
because it can trigger the brain,
556
00:28:05,476 --> 00:28:10,147
and set off things, you know, like
bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.
557
00:28:10,189 --> 00:28:12,358
And he said, "Mom, I'm not doing drugs."
558
00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:16,529
You know, and it was... It became like
fighting that was going on between us.
559
00:28:16,570 --> 00:28:20,115
I mean, he'd spend hours in the bathroom
picking his face,
560
00:28:20,157 --> 00:28:22,451
and one time the mirror even came off.
561
00:28:22,493 --> 00:28:25,912
You know, the bathroom wall detached.
562
00:28:25,954 --> 00:28:28,290
And why do you think he was picking his face?
Like, what was he doing?
563
00:28:28,332 --> 00:28:30,209
We thought it was meth.
564
00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:32,628
Like, sometimes he'd be so sedated
565
00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:35,631
that his eyes would roll back in his head.
566
00:28:35,673 --> 00:28:38,967
And he'd talk to me and he'd go, "Mother..."
567
00:28:39,009 --> 00:28:41,512
- You know, and he'd nod off.
- [Chris] Yeah.
568
00:28:41,554 --> 00:28:44,890
- And that sounds more like a heroin...
- [Mautner] Heroin...
569
00:28:44,931 --> 00:28:48,435
Nodding off on, like, pills or something
like that. That's kinda very similar.
570
00:28:48,477 --> 00:28:51,813
More important, you know,
important for parents,
571
00:28:51,855 --> 00:28:55,234
- he was on medication as well, right, for...
- Yes.
572
00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:59,154
- Psychological issues, right? So...
- Yes.
573
00:28:59,196 --> 00:29:02,408
If you're on medication and you're taking
something that affects your brain,
574
00:29:02,449 --> 00:29:06,161
then we're really, you know, kinda playing
Russian roulette there.
575
00:29:06,203 --> 00:29:08,830
You don't know what you're
getting into at all.
576
00:29:08,872 --> 00:29:12,251
I've been accused of everything,
from, you know, on blogs,
577
00:29:12,292 --> 00:29:15,462
from kicking my son out of the house
because he was gay.
578
00:29:16,213 --> 00:29:19,341
You know, that's...
579
00:29:19,383 --> 00:29:23,887
What's that got to do with it, you know?
That came out in therapy.
580
00:29:23,929 --> 00:29:26,806
This was a different person.
This was addiction.
581
00:29:26,848 --> 00:29:30,102
This was living in my house,
and I couldn't have that.
582
00:29:30,143 --> 00:29:33,146
You don't put any other stuff in your drink?
583
00:29:33,188 --> 00:29:36,024
- It's kava and kratom, right?
- It's as raw as you get.
584
00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,695
Because Linda Mautner told me that you guys
lace the drinks.
585
00:29:39,737 --> 00:29:43,532
And that's what made her son, you know,
jump off a bridge to commit suicide,
586
00:29:43,574 --> 00:29:46,034
which is a very tragic story.
587
00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:48,995
Well, Linda Mautner is consistently incorrect.
588
00:29:49,037 --> 00:29:53,125
I knew him personally. I just see a mother
trying to make sense
589
00:29:53,166 --> 00:29:56,795
- out of something senseless. It doesn't make sense.
- [Chris] Yeah.
590
00:29:56,836 --> 00:29:59,172
[Scianno] But his cause
of death wasn't kratom.
591
00:29:59,214 --> 00:30:01,508
She gets to go on the news,
592
00:30:01,550 --> 00:30:04,553
you know, sympathetic media, for
whatever reason, I don't know.
593
00:30:04,595 --> 00:30:06,680
I don't know whose behind it, or what.
594
00:30:06,722 --> 00:30:10,142
- But she gets to say whatever she wants to say.
- Mm-hmm.
595
00:30:10,183 --> 00:30:12,770
And you know, it's out there.
596
00:30:12,811 --> 00:30:15,397
So, kratom has a PR problem.
597
00:30:15,439 --> 00:30:21,779
Look, she told us... She was like,
"Well, you know, he died from kratom."
598
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:25,574
"Uh, you sure?" Well, the first time
he checked into drug rehab,
599
00:30:25,616 --> 00:30:27,867
he had opioids in his system,
600
00:30:27,909 --> 00:30:30,412
the second time he checked into drug rehab,
601
00:30:30,454 --> 00:30:33,749
he had methamphetamines in his system.
602
00:30:33,791 --> 00:30:35,584
And he jumped off a bridge and killed himself.
603
00:30:35,626 --> 00:30:39,254
I mean, God bless her, but it's like, "Ma'am,
604
00:30:39,296 --> 00:30:41,923
your son didn't die from kratom."
605
00:30:41,965 --> 00:30:44,843
I went from smoking a
pack of cigarettes a day,
606
00:30:44,884 --> 00:30:47,971
drinking 20 Red Bulls a day,
doing 90 pain pills a day,
607
00:30:48,013 --> 00:30:50,265
snorting seven grams of cocaine a day,
608
00:30:50,307 --> 00:30:51,809
banging a ton of porn stars a day...
609
00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:54,894
I don't want to do anything, none of that.
610
00:30:54,936 --> 00:30:59,483
But, here's the thing, I am in so much pain
when I wake up.
611
00:30:59,525 --> 00:31:01,234
But then I found kratom.
612
00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:06,281
And my pain level, like I said,
went from a nine to a three.
613
00:31:06,323 --> 00:31:09,785
There was an infant born with total addiction,
614
00:31:09,827 --> 00:31:11,453
so they were in withdrawal,
615
00:31:11,495 --> 00:31:16,082
And the mother said the only thing that
she had ingested
616
00:31:16,124 --> 00:31:17,626
was the kratom.
617
00:31:17,668 --> 00:31:20,629
But luckily, she had some of her kratom
with her.
618
00:31:20,671 --> 00:31:22,798
And so, they sent a sample to us,
619
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,218
and we found that the actual kratom sample
620
00:31:26,259 --> 00:31:29,429
was adulterated with the hydrocodone.
621
00:31:29,471 --> 00:31:32,349
I mean, in Sweden, there was definitely
a bunch of deaths
622
00:31:32,391 --> 00:31:35,728
because of this laced product
with O-Desmethyltramadol,
623
00:31:35,769 --> 00:31:38,605
which is a very potent synthetic opioid.
624
00:31:38,647 --> 00:31:40,566
And it seems pretty clear
625
00:31:40,607 --> 00:31:43,109
that the deaths are from that component,
and not from the Kratom itself.
626
00:31:43,151 --> 00:31:45,779
He has not died because of kratom,
you see. As I said just now,
627
00:31:45,821 --> 00:31:49,282
people have been using kratom in
Southeast Asia for more than 100 years.
628
00:31:49,324 --> 00:31:51,201
There have not been any mortality cases.
629
00:31:51,243 --> 00:31:53,871
Nobody has died using Kratom in Malaysia.
630
00:31:53,912 --> 00:31:57,207
The only deaths listed
631
00:31:57,249 --> 00:32:02,421
as associated with kratom
are polydrug situations,
632
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:05,883
where a person was on multiple other illicit
633
00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:08,635
and/or prescription drugs when they died.
634
00:32:08,677 --> 00:32:11,597
It's not new, it's not synthetic.
635
00:32:11,638 --> 00:32:14,140
And the media is attaching onto this as new.
636
00:32:14,182 --> 00:32:17,728
It's new to the United
States in the last 20 years,
637
00:32:17,770 --> 00:32:19,396
but it's been used in Southeast Asia
638
00:32:19,438 --> 00:32:22,107
over hundreds and thousands
of years, culturally,
639
00:32:22,148 --> 00:32:23,567
for medicinal purposes.
640
00:32:23,609 --> 00:32:25,819
And yet, here we have the DEA
641
00:32:25,861 --> 00:32:29,155
saying that there's no medicinal use
from this plant,
642
00:32:29,197 --> 00:32:34,453
when every single one of our members
is getting medicinal benefit...
643
00:32:34,494 --> 00:32:36,204
What is the problem with kratom?
644
00:32:36,246 --> 00:32:39,999
Why is it so controversial? Why are
people so up in arms about it?
645
00:32:40,041 --> 00:32:41,919
That could go in so many different directions.
646
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,880
And I think primarily what the problem is,
647
00:32:44,922 --> 00:32:47,006
it is competition
648
00:32:47,048 --> 00:32:52,220
to some of the largest money-making industries
in the United States.
649
00:32:52,262 --> 00:32:55,390
And I think that with the
media and the propaganda
650
00:32:55,432 --> 00:32:58,435
that they've been allowed
to spew to the public,
651
00:32:58,477 --> 00:33:00,103
which is based on exaggeration.
652
00:33:00,145 --> 00:33:04,733
People are believing that it is something
like illegal heroin,
653
00:33:04,775 --> 00:33:10,363
which is, to me, the biggest joke,
and yet, the saddest joke
654
00:33:10,405 --> 00:33:11,531
that I've ever heard.
655
00:33:11,573 --> 00:33:13,992
It's not the kind of thing that you crave
656
00:33:14,033 --> 00:33:16,995
and you feel like you have to go out
and seek.
657
00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:21,207
Because it's not the kind of thing
that you can escape your life from.
658
00:33:21,249 --> 00:33:23,877
That's the major difference to me.
659
00:33:23,919 --> 00:33:27,046
When I was on opioids, I
was using them to escape.
660
00:33:27,088 --> 00:33:29,508
It was a miserable existence.
661
00:33:29,549 --> 00:33:33,011
I was in my 30s. All my friends were getting
married and having children,
662
00:33:33,052 --> 00:33:36,181
I never was able to have children.
I was sick for ten years.
663
00:33:36,222 --> 00:33:41,770
We are people that just want a natural
alternative to prescription drugs.
664
00:33:41,812 --> 00:33:43,396
And this is what works for us.
665
00:33:43,438 --> 00:33:46,733
Also, interestingly, about 60% of our members
666
00:33:46,775 --> 00:33:49,569
have never even experienced
addiction in their lives.
667
00:33:49,611 --> 00:33:55,283
They're just looking for an alternative
to pain medications.
668
00:33:55,325 --> 00:33:57,703
[Chris] I figured if I'm going
to continue to use kratom,
669
00:33:57,744 --> 00:34:00,413
I should probably consult with the people
that matter the most.
670
00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:05,043
My brother Smelly recently started using
kratom as a pre-workout supplement.
671
00:34:05,084 --> 00:34:08,213
[Smelly] I like it, and I like the
feeling of it. It felt pretty good.
672
00:34:08,254 --> 00:34:09,840
[Chris] What kind of feeling
do you get from it?
673
00:34:09,882 --> 00:34:13,343
It just kind of almost gave me,
like, a sense of calmness,
674
00:34:13,385 --> 00:34:16,346
and maybe a little bit better focus even.
675
00:34:16,388 --> 00:34:18,097
Yeah, I wanted you guys to try it
676
00:34:18,139 --> 00:34:21,142
because I didn't want anybody to be scared
of what I was taking.
677
00:34:21,184 --> 00:34:23,061
- Like, it was one of the main reasons...
- Right.
678
00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:27,440
Uh, has it ever caused any
concern for you, or...
679
00:34:27,482 --> 00:34:30,235
It doesn't seem that powerful
680
00:34:30,276 --> 00:34:34,197
to have a negative impact on your life.
681
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,949
You know, I guess that's what
we're talking about here
682
00:34:35,991 --> 00:34:38,201
when we're talking about addiction,
683
00:34:38,243 --> 00:34:40,787
like who cares if you're addicted
to lifting weights
684
00:34:40,829 --> 00:34:42,748
if it doesn't hurt anybody else.
685
00:34:42,789 --> 00:34:46,043
[Chris] When you hurt your elbow,
you're kind of, you know, beat up.
686
00:34:46,084 --> 00:34:47,586
How do you cope with pain?
687
00:34:47,627 --> 00:34:50,047
I usually just, I mean, I
usually just deal with it.
688
00:34:50,088 --> 00:34:53,884
You know, so, for now, I'm trying to actually,
like, listen to the doctors and stuff,
689
00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,219
and use my arm a little bit less.
690
00:34:56,261 --> 00:34:59,097
And try not to do any upper body exercises
at all.
691
00:34:59,138 --> 00:35:00,974
You know, as long as I get back
to it at some point,
692
00:35:01,016 --> 00:35:02,350
it is what I love to do.
693
00:35:02,392 --> 00:35:04,519
So, whether I have to have
a surgery or whatever,
694
00:35:04,561 --> 00:35:06,271
I'll deal with it at that point.
695
00:35:06,312 --> 00:35:09,066
You know, I've had one knee replacement,
two hip replacements.
696
00:35:09,148 --> 00:35:12,277
They've been fine, I have no problem.
I was riding my bike,
697
00:35:12,318 --> 00:35:15,614
between five and seven miles a day, you know,
and everything.
698
00:35:15,655 --> 00:35:18,909
And as I was going to hand a
guy a bag, I trip over a curb,
699
00:35:18,951 --> 00:35:21,661
and I get this groin pull somehow.
700
00:35:21,703 --> 00:35:23,789
They gave me some hydrocodone
to take, you know.
701
00:35:23,830 --> 00:35:25,624
And that was helping.
702
00:35:25,665 --> 00:35:27,876
I'd take two in the morning, two
in the afternoon, two at night,
703
00:35:27,918 --> 00:35:29,920
but it was still really painful.
704
00:35:29,962 --> 00:35:33,548
Then you had given me some kratom, I think
it was... I can't remember exactly,
705
00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:38,303
but from April on, I was fine. I
wasn't taking the hydrocodone anymore.
706
00:35:38,344 --> 00:35:39,930
I was taking that,
707
00:35:39,972 --> 00:35:41,807
and I was back to riding my bike.
I rode my bike all summer.
708
00:35:41,848 --> 00:35:44,851
And so, I've been taking two a day,
709
00:35:44,893 --> 00:35:46,144
it doesn't make me high.
710
00:35:46,185 --> 00:35:48,730
I don't realize that I took it.
711
00:35:48,772 --> 00:35:50,899
But I'm always happy, I'm
always in a good mood.
712
00:35:50,941 --> 00:35:54,736
I've never really been a person
that was depressed or anything.
713
00:35:54,778 --> 00:35:56,613
I mean, I hate to be cynical,
714
00:35:56,655 --> 00:35:59,616
but like everything in this country
is run by money.
715
00:35:59,658 --> 00:36:01,576
The government's not going
to do their research,
716
00:36:01,618 --> 00:36:04,245
and the pharmaceutical companies
aren't going to do the research,
717
00:36:04,287 --> 00:36:05,914
unless there's something in it for them.
718
00:36:05,956 --> 00:36:07,833
If there's something in it for the government,
they'll do it.
719
00:36:07,874 --> 00:36:10,209
If there's something in it for the
pharmaceutical companies, they'll do it.
720
00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,963
But if there's nothing in it for either
one of them, they won't put up the money.
721
00:36:13,005 --> 00:36:14,673
So, if you come up with something like that,
722
00:36:14,714 --> 00:36:16,466
you've got to come up with the studies.
723
00:36:16,508 --> 00:36:17,926
What do you have going on with you?
724
00:36:17,968 --> 00:36:19,928
Well, it's an entrapped nerve in my back
725
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848
that's making the pain go all the way down
into my leg,
726
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:26,018
make me lose movement in my leg.
727
00:36:26,059 --> 00:36:29,395
And it's, like, 24/7 pain.
728
00:36:29,437 --> 00:36:32,941
Unless I'm sleeping, I don't know I have...
I don't have any pain.
729
00:36:32,983 --> 00:36:34,943
Other than that, I have pain all the time.
730
00:36:34,985 --> 00:36:38,030
And I don't think people shouldn't
try something for pain.
731
00:36:38,071 --> 00:36:41,574
I just don't think they should take
more than they should.
732
00:36:41,616 --> 00:36:43,994
And I think all of it, the kratom and all,
733
00:36:44,036 --> 00:36:45,244
I think they're trying to stop it
734
00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:47,622
because they're probably trying to make it,
735
00:36:47,664 --> 00:36:49,124
so they can sell it and make money.
736
00:36:49,166 --> 00:36:50,917
Why are you afraid to try it?
737
00:36:52,335 --> 00:36:55,296
- For pain? Um...
- Mm-hmm.
738
00:36:55,338 --> 00:36:59,968
I don't know, I just, I just never tried
any kind of...
739
00:37:00,010 --> 00:37:01,511
anything, and so...
740
00:37:01,553 --> 00:37:03,722
But if the doctor gave
it to you, you'd try it?
741
00:37:04,597 --> 00:37:06,391
I probably would.
742
00:37:06,432 --> 00:37:08,852
[Chris] So, my mom was afraid to take Kratom.
743
00:37:08,894 --> 00:37:10,770
But my friend's mom didn't hesitate.
744
00:37:10,812 --> 00:37:12,647
This is Tony from the gym.
745
00:37:12,689 --> 00:37:15,859
His mother started taking kratom
to get off her hydrocodone,
746
00:37:15,901 --> 00:37:18,570
and a lot of the other pills
she's been prescribed.
747
00:37:18,611 --> 00:37:20,739
- [Chris] You're 89 years old, huh?
- Yeah.
748
00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:22,949
- You look fantastic.
- Well, thank you.
749
00:37:22,991 --> 00:37:25,326
- Like a spring chicken, 89 years old, come on.
- [laughs]
750
00:37:25,368 --> 00:37:26,995
[Mrs. Porter] Some days I feel like it.
751
00:37:27,037 --> 00:37:29,998
- [Chris] You started taking kratom recently, huh?
- Yes.
752
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,500
- Because I'm on a lot of medicines.
- I'm all ears.
753
00:37:32,542 --> 00:37:35,628
I'm on about 15 different medicines.
754
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:37,964
Levothyroxine,
755
00:37:38,006 --> 00:37:40,926
Benecol, Amlodipine,
756
00:37:40,967 --> 00:37:43,970
hydrochloride, hydrocodone,
757
00:37:44,012 --> 00:37:46,973
Prezolon, take calcium,
758
00:37:47,015 --> 00:37:50,060
the Prolia injection, twice a year.
759
00:37:50,102 --> 00:37:53,813
I don't know a lot of people who
take as much medicine as I do.
760
00:37:53,855 --> 00:37:57,150
I have a sister, 91, and
she takes six pills day.
761
00:37:57,192 --> 00:38:00,445
- I'm just tired of pain.
- [Chris] Yeah.
762
00:38:00,486 --> 00:38:04,449
And if anything else can help me,
763
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:08,036
without me taking all of these medicines,
you know, I'd try.
764
00:38:08,078 --> 00:38:11,248
[Chris] The DEA is trying to
make it a Schedule I drug.
765
00:38:11,289 --> 00:38:13,792
You know, on par with heroin,
and these other drugs.
766
00:38:13,833 --> 00:38:17,420
But, you've taken it, you don't
see it that way, do you?
767
00:38:17,462 --> 00:38:20,673
- Doesn't make you high?
- No, no.
768
00:38:20,715 --> 00:38:22,968
I do what I want to do.
769
00:38:23,009 --> 00:38:25,637
- Like always.
- [Chris] What kind of stuff do you do every day?
770
00:38:25,678 --> 00:38:27,430
Everything I want to.
771
00:38:27,472 --> 00:38:31,601
If it's nice outside, I'm outside in the yard
or whatever,
772
00:38:31,643 --> 00:38:34,395
because if I'm just sitting, it's worse.
773
00:38:34,437 --> 00:38:39,276
If I move around or whatever,
then, you know, I feel better.
774
00:38:39,317 --> 00:38:42,237
- [Chris] If you're moving, you're not in pain?
- I'm in pain, yeah.
775
00:38:42,279 --> 00:38:47,242
But I just learn to... I just don't
give into all of it.
776
00:38:47,284 --> 00:38:49,869
[Chris] When the government tries
to ban something people want,
777
00:38:49,911 --> 00:38:53,123
the people band together
and march on Washington.
778
00:38:53,165 --> 00:38:56,417
Kratom advocates were able to get
120,000 people
779
00:38:56,459 --> 00:38:59,587
to sign a petition to keep Kratom legal.
780
00:38:59,629 --> 00:39:02,590
This march was the last-ditch effort
to get the DEA
781
00:39:02,632 --> 00:39:05,343
to put the brakes on a Schedule I ban.
782
00:39:05,384 --> 00:39:07,846
- [cheering]
- We are Kratom!
783
00:39:07,887 --> 00:39:10,556
[all chanting] We are Kratom!
784
00:39:10,598 --> 00:39:14,477
[Chris] When I went out to DC for the
Kratom march, I didn't know what to expect.
785
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:17,772
But I met some very fascinating people
from all walks of life.
786
00:39:17,814 --> 00:39:21,151
And we had one thing in common, pain.
787
00:39:21,193 --> 00:39:22,819
What do you guys hope comes out of this?
788
00:39:22,861 --> 00:39:25,571
That I get to keep Kratom in my life,
because it saved my life.
789
00:39:25,613 --> 00:39:27,240
I was pretty much suicidal
790
00:39:27,282 --> 00:39:29,326
before my doctor... I went in there suicidal.
791
00:39:29,367 --> 00:39:31,870
I got pregnant actually, and I was sent
to the methadone clinic,
792
00:39:31,911 --> 00:39:33,997
I had to have my daughter on methadone,
793
00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:38,543
which was a complete disaster pretty much.
794
00:39:38,584 --> 00:39:40,545
It's a very emotional subject for me,
795
00:39:40,586 --> 00:39:42,547
I watched my daughter go through withdrawal
for six months afterwards.
796
00:39:42,588 --> 00:39:48,136
[chanting] Kratom saves lives!
797
00:39:48,178 --> 00:39:50,388
I was on suboxone for four years straight.
798
00:39:50,429 --> 00:39:53,432
And they had led me to believe that suboxone
was a cure to addiction.
799
00:39:53,474 --> 00:39:56,144
They actually literally told me that,
this will cure you.
800
00:39:56,186 --> 00:39:59,147
Three years ago, I was bedridden.
Every day was a struggle.
801
00:39:59,189 --> 00:40:02,692
And now with kratom, I can live my life.
I can come here.
802
00:40:02,734 --> 00:40:07,947
I can do things without
being in so total pain.
803
00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:10,742
- I actually ended up having a grand mal seizure...
- Oh, wow.
804
00:40:10,783 --> 00:40:12,077
...from taking tramadol.
805
00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:13,619
And I came across Kratom.
806
00:40:13,661 --> 00:40:16,122
I went from sitting in a rocking chair,
807
00:40:16,164 --> 00:40:18,208
weeping and saying goodbye to my daughter
808
00:40:18,250 --> 00:40:20,210
because my wife and my daughter
were going to leave the next day.
809
00:40:20,252 --> 00:40:23,546
To being able to actually finish up
my service,
810
00:40:23,588 --> 00:40:25,215
and I still have my family.
811
00:40:25,257 --> 00:40:27,300
[woman] I was on fentanyl for six years,
812
00:40:27,342 --> 00:40:30,387
and thanks to kratom, I no
longer have to do that.
813
00:40:30,428 --> 00:40:33,056
I can choose to help myself naturally.
814
00:40:33,098 --> 00:40:36,142
And I have for a year been off fentanyl.
815
00:40:36,184 --> 00:40:40,188
I had about 15 years of my life
go by in a blur of opiates.
816
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:42,690
And then, as I was kinda coming off it,
817
00:40:42,732 --> 00:40:45,693
dealing with... and just dragging,
818
00:40:45,735 --> 00:40:48,905
kratom just gave me the energy to pull my life
back together.
819
00:40:48,947 --> 00:40:51,991
And stop the cravings of opioids.
820
00:40:52,033 --> 00:40:56,037
OxyContin for breakthrough, oxycodone for
breakthrough, 15 milligrams of tramadol.
821
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:58,456
- So, you were addicted to these...
- Oh, yeah, yeah.
822
00:40:58,497 --> 00:41:00,375
Yeah, I was going through withdrawal symptoms
when it stopped.
823
00:41:00,417 --> 00:41:02,752
And Kratom actually helped you get off of...
824
00:41:02,794 --> 00:41:06,089
Yeah, I reduced all of my pain medications.
825
00:41:06,131 --> 00:41:08,883
I was on tramadol for a long time,
for over seven years.
826
00:41:08,925 --> 00:41:11,428
[Chris] You go through a lot of pain? You're
a professional football player, right?
827
00:41:11,469 --> 00:41:12,804
Yeah, it's given me my life back.
828
00:41:12,845 --> 00:41:16,349
What is this DEA ban going
to mean to kratom users?
829
00:41:17,434 --> 00:41:19,852
It turns them into criminals,
830
00:41:19,894 --> 00:41:24,232
and drug dealers, and drug addicts,
and drug...
831
00:41:24,274 --> 00:41:29,112
It will mean, for a lot of people,
depression and suicide.
832
00:41:29,154 --> 00:41:32,449
[man] So, I was deployed constantly.
I was home for a couple of months,
833
00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:33,783
I'd get deployed again.
834
00:41:34,492 --> 00:41:36,244
I got out in 2007
835
00:41:36,286 --> 00:41:40,332
with PTSD so bad that every
time the phone rang,
836
00:41:40,373 --> 00:41:41,749
it set me off.
837
00:41:41,791 --> 00:41:43,960
I couldn't check the mail,
I wouldn't leave my house.
838
00:41:44,002 --> 00:41:46,921
- I lost myself because of medicines.
- Me too.
839
00:41:46,963 --> 00:41:50,091
I lost myself because of my service
to the country.
840
00:41:50,133 --> 00:41:52,260
I lost everything I was.
841
00:41:52,302 --> 00:41:56,681
But now I'm with Kratom, I've been given
a new lease on life.
842
00:41:56,722 --> 00:42:00,226
[Chris] Drew Turner spent nine years deployed
for the US Navy.
843
00:42:00,268 --> 00:42:02,354
He was honorably discharged
when his shooting hand
844
00:42:02,395 --> 00:42:05,064
was smashed by a prisoner at Guantanamo Bay.
845
00:42:05,106 --> 00:42:09,068
He suffers from severe
PTSD and Meigs Syndrome,
846
00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:13,572
which causes uncontrollable facial tics,
and there's no cure for it.
847
00:42:13,614 --> 00:42:15,741
Kratom is the only thing that works.
848
00:42:15,783 --> 00:42:18,203
Without it, his life is a living hell.
849
00:42:18,244 --> 00:42:21,039
I wanted something where I
can get rid of the pain,
850
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,499
and feel a little bit better,
851
00:42:22,540 --> 00:42:24,625
but at least have some
energy to get my life back.
852
00:42:24,667 --> 00:42:26,461
My wife would help me get
out of bed in the morning.
853
00:42:27,253 --> 00:42:29,297
I would go to the couch.
854
00:42:29,339 --> 00:42:33,051
And if she went into her office that day,
855
00:42:33,092 --> 00:42:35,261
when she came back, I was in the same place
she left me.
856
00:42:35,303 --> 00:42:37,514
You know, I may have accidents.
857
00:42:37,555 --> 00:42:39,391
- I couldn't get to the bathroom.
- Wow, really?
858
00:42:39,432 --> 00:42:42,394
[Turner] I got to a point where
it was pretty much just hopeless.
859
00:42:42,435 --> 00:42:44,937
When you hit that point of hopelessness,
860
00:42:44,979 --> 00:42:48,107
there is really two
directions I could have gone.
861
00:42:48,149 --> 00:42:50,943
- Keep trying, or end it all.
- Yeah.
862
00:42:50,985 --> 00:42:54,155
And I'll tell you one thing
I'm not going to be,
863
00:42:54,197 --> 00:42:56,241
is one of those 22 a day.
864
00:42:56,282 --> 00:43:00,328
[Chris] Twenty-two veterans a day commit
suicide because they are in pain.
865
00:43:00,370 --> 00:43:02,539
Whether it's emotional or physical,
866
00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:05,708
many experts say your body can't tell
the difference.
867
00:43:05,750 --> 00:43:07,377
This is Peter Guidry.
868
00:43:07,419 --> 00:43:10,088
He runs a bicycle rehab program
for veterans.
869
00:43:10,129 --> 00:43:12,340
They've been combating PTSD and addiction
870
00:43:12,382 --> 00:43:15,801
with bicycles, natural foods,
and herbs like kratom.
871
00:43:15,843 --> 00:43:18,846
I feel forgotten, it's why we call it
"Forgotten, not gone."
872
00:43:18,888 --> 00:43:21,516
It was just the honest truth, you know.
They forgot about us.
873
00:43:21,558 --> 00:43:23,476
Am I gonna be a broken vessel, or just
874
00:43:23,518 --> 00:43:26,145
join the ranks of every veteran
complaining about the obvious?
875
00:43:26,187 --> 00:43:29,148
They haven't been taking care of our veterans
since the '70s, right?
876
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:30,858
They didn't take care of
our Vietnam air veterans.
877
00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:32,818
They didn't take care of the Gulf War.
878
00:43:32,860 --> 00:43:35,071
So, why am I still confused enough that...
879
00:43:35,113 --> 00:43:37,490
- I'm baffled and I want to kill myself.
- [Chris] Yeah.
880
00:43:37,532 --> 00:43:40,201
I realized the VA's set up to do what they do,
881
00:43:40,243 --> 00:43:42,328
it's acute medicine, right? It's a hospital.
882
00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:45,290
When is the last time you went to the
hospital or had a breakthrough mentally?
883
00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:47,417
- Yeah.
- You go there to get drugs.
884
00:43:47,459 --> 00:43:49,085
You know, a lot of the veterans who are coming
885
00:43:49,127 --> 00:43:50,711
are over-medicated right now
886
00:43:50,753 --> 00:43:52,380
from the drugs they are taking at the VA.
887
00:43:52,422 --> 00:43:55,216
I think, at one point, we
kinda had 26 different
888
00:43:55,258 --> 00:43:57,343
- types of prescription medications.
- Wow.
889
00:43:57,385 --> 00:44:01,431
That I had, at one time, had
active prescriptions for.
890
00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,142
I'll spend weeks where I don't sleep.
891
00:44:04,183 --> 00:44:05,768
Pretty severe nightmares.
892
00:44:07,479 --> 00:44:10,565
You know, just everything that
893
00:44:10,607 --> 00:44:12,858
I can feel bad about, I feel bad about.
894
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:14,652
I got addicted to my pain pills
895
00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,530
that they gave me through the VA for fibroids.
896
00:44:17,572 --> 00:44:19,740
Fortunately for me, mine was kind of monthly,
897
00:44:19,782 --> 00:44:22,660
and you know, here and
there, but for my husband,
898
00:44:22,701 --> 00:44:24,954
- he is in constant pain.
- [Chris] Yeah.
899
00:44:24,996 --> 00:44:26,331
[Kelley] So, he just sucked it up,
900
00:44:26,372 --> 00:44:28,916
and I guess he just got
more and more depressed.
901
00:44:28,958 --> 00:44:33,712
It got to the point one time where
I stole his last few pills.
902
00:44:33,754 --> 00:44:37,049
And, he went to look for his
pills and he didn't have any.
903
00:44:37,091 --> 00:44:40,303
I don't know what he was going through
at that time. And he was, like,
904
00:44:40,345 --> 00:44:41,804
moaning in agony.
905
00:44:41,846 --> 00:44:44,140
And I remember lying next to him, thinking,
906
00:44:44,182 --> 00:44:48,060
"Would he shut up, because he is messing up
my high?"
907
00:44:48,102 --> 00:44:52,023
But now, finding out about alternate forms
of healing, we are talking about kratom,
908
00:44:52,064 --> 00:44:54,484
that helped me just deal
with the pain a little bit.
909
00:44:54,526 --> 00:44:56,611
Just so I don't mentally get so far out
910
00:44:56,653 --> 00:44:58,695
that I'm doing something self-destructive.
911
00:44:58,737 --> 00:45:02,200
By the point where I started taking kratom,
912
00:45:02,241 --> 00:45:04,827
you know, I was mentally
and physically a mess.
913
00:45:04,869 --> 00:45:07,872
- Yeah.
- You know, you could roll me up, stick me in a garbage bag
914
00:45:07,913 --> 00:45:10,375
and put me out at the curb, and
that was about all I was good for.
915
00:45:10,416 --> 00:45:13,336
What are the side effects
that you get from kratom?
916
00:45:13,378 --> 00:45:15,129
[laughs]
917
00:45:16,464 --> 00:45:18,424
I smile a little too much.
918
00:45:18,466 --> 00:45:20,092
[laughs]
919
00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:22,595
- You are a liberal...
- I'm a liberal. I'm a liberal redneck,
920
00:45:22,637 --> 00:45:24,556
which people think is an
oxymoron, but it's not.
921
00:45:24,597 --> 00:45:27,475
I'm also not a unicorn. There are more of me.
922
00:45:27,517 --> 00:45:29,519
We do exist.
923
00:45:29,561 --> 00:45:32,438
[Chris] Trae Crowder is a stand-up comedian
known as "The Liberal Redneck."
924
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,108
His Youtube video about kratom
got over 200,000 views,
925
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:39,445
and got a lot of people to sign
the petition to keep it legal.
926
00:45:39,487 --> 00:45:41,030
This is kratom.
927
00:45:41,072 --> 00:45:43,282
It's a tea made from the leaves
of a plant related to coffee
928
00:45:43,324 --> 00:45:46,536
that has been consumed in Southeast Asia
for hundreds of years.
929
00:45:46,578 --> 00:45:49,622
It's the only tea I fuck with you can't get
at a chicken buffet.
930
00:45:49,664 --> 00:45:53,125
I found kratom. I had never heard of it,
you know,
931
00:45:53,167 --> 00:45:56,212
and as I started reading more and
more about it, I was like, okay,
932
00:45:56,254 --> 00:45:59,090
it's related to the coffee plant,
933
00:45:59,131 --> 00:46:02,468
you know, botanically. So, it gives you energy
and whatever else.
934
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:05,555
But it's not the, like, jittery
kind that caffeine is,
935
00:46:05,597 --> 00:46:08,807
and I've become aware of
936
00:46:08,849 --> 00:46:11,561
the positive implications
the kratom can have for
937
00:46:11,603 --> 00:46:14,355
opiate addiction, which is
938
00:46:14,397 --> 00:46:16,232
an issue that is extremely personal to me.
939
00:46:16,274 --> 00:46:19,110
Yes, my mama cooks the best
940
00:46:19,151 --> 00:46:21,070
crystal meth you've ever had in your life.
941
00:46:21,112 --> 00:46:24,365
- [crowd laughing]
- So good.
942
00:46:24,407 --> 00:46:26,701
So good... That's a joke. I'm kidding.
943
00:46:26,743 --> 00:46:29,870
- [crowd laughing]
- Yeah. My mom will never cook meth.
944
00:46:29,912 --> 00:46:33,040
She sold pills, that's a totally
different thing.
945
00:46:33,082 --> 00:46:37,503
My mom had gotten wrapped
up in pills and opiates,
946
00:46:37,545 --> 00:46:40,632
and not just doing them, she sold them too.
947
00:46:40,673 --> 00:46:43,593
So, she got in trouble with the law
because of that, you know.
948
00:46:43,635 --> 00:46:46,178
She, like, you know, went to jail a couple
of times
949
00:46:46,220 --> 00:46:47,680
over the course of me growing up,
950
00:46:47,722 --> 00:46:49,682
and even when she wasn't in jail,
951
00:46:49,724 --> 00:46:52,351
she was, you know, strung out or whatever,
952
00:46:52,393 --> 00:46:54,061
so she just wasn't really around.
953
00:46:54,103 --> 00:46:56,105
What do you think the future holds for kratom?
954
00:46:56,147 --> 00:46:57,398
Do you think it's gonna get banned,
955
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,024
do you think it's okay for now?
956
00:46:59,066 --> 00:47:00,526
- You think we're...
- I think
957
00:47:00,568 --> 00:47:02,320
that they will end up banning it.
958
00:47:02,361 --> 00:47:03,946
I think it will become illegal.
959
00:47:03,988 --> 00:47:05,531
It's a mild stimulant.
960
00:47:05,573 --> 00:47:07,325
It hits some of the same parts
of your brain that opiates do.
961
00:47:07,366 --> 00:47:10,161
So, a lot of addicts have been using it
to keep off of the hard shit,
962
00:47:10,202 --> 00:47:12,829
which does not sit well with the lizards
at the Pharma companies.
963
00:47:12,871 --> 00:47:14,540
Big Pharmas are one of those
964
00:47:14,582 --> 00:47:18,002
powerful lobbying entities in the country,
965
00:47:18,043 --> 00:47:20,212
and I just knew...
966
00:47:20,254 --> 00:47:23,341
I was like, "Oh, what, this
little plant that grows",
967
00:47:23,382 --> 00:47:24,634
- it can, you know...
- Sure.
968
00:47:24,676 --> 00:47:27,052
Can chop them off at
the knees, potentially.
969
00:47:27,094 --> 00:47:29,054
There's no way they're gonna let that happen.
970
00:47:29,096 --> 00:47:30,973
This is where we have found ourselves,
971
00:47:31,015 --> 00:47:33,810
that we must regulate our own regulators
972
00:47:33,850 --> 00:47:36,061
and bring the truth about kratom to light.
973
00:47:36,103 --> 00:47:37,938
[Chris] Meet Travis Lowin.
974
00:47:37,980 --> 00:47:41,818
He is the executive director of
the Botanical Education Alliance.
975
00:47:41,858 --> 00:47:44,028
He's been involved in the
importing and exporting,
976
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:46,531
manufacturing and analytical testing
977
00:47:46,572 --> 00:47:49,450
of herbal supplements for over a decade.
978
00:47:49,492 --> 00:47:51,160
Is there a detrimental effect
979
00:47:51,202 --> 00:47:53,245
to a human being, short and long-term effect,
980
00:47:53,287 --> 00:47:55,540
as a result of using kratom?
And the answer is no.
981
00:47:55,581 --> 00:47:57,750
Through donations that we receive,
982
00:47:57,792 --> 00:47:59,794
they'll fly me out to other states,
983
00:47:59,836 --> 00:48:02,129
and I meet with state representatives,
984
00:48:02,171 --> 00:48:04,382
or senators, or whoever else it might be
985
00:48:04,423 --> 00:48:07,719
that's influential as far as
passing these bills, and so forth,
986
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,095
to basically present the science, to present
the facts.
987
00:48:10,638 --> 00:48:12,223
Is it safe?
988
00:48:12,264 --> 00:48:15,184
You know, is this safe, like if someone was
to sit around,
989
00:48:15,226 --> 00:48:17,520
can someone really overdose on kratom?
990
00:48:17,562 --> 00:48:19,063
The answer is no.
991
00:48:19,104 --> 00:48:21,148
Like, do you... I mean, try overdosing
on coffee grains.
992
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:24,193
- It's not gonna happen.
- What if a little kid found some pills and took 'em?
993
00:48:24,235 --> 00:48:26,362
If a kid found some pills and took 'em,
994
00:48:26,404 --> 00:48:28,406
he might be pretty excited.
995
00:48:28,447 --> 00:48:29,741
[Chris laughs]
996
00:48:29,782 --> 00:48:31,659
- And probably go play outside.
- It's not gonna...
997
00:48:31,701 --> 00:48:33,118
No, it's not gonna kill your kid.
998
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,747
In Alabama, what's the big interest
in banning it?
999
00:48:35,788 --> 00:48:37,914
Like, what's the big, huge...
1000
00:48:37,956 --> 00:48:43,003
Alabama has the largest
prescription painkiller use
1001
00:48:43,045 --> 00:48:44,422
to any other state in the United States.
1002
00:48:44,463 --> 00:48:46,758
Actually, the statistics show that
1003
00:48:46,799 --> 00:48:48,718
there are more prescriptions
1004
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,597
for painkillers than there
actually are people in Alabama.
1005
00:48:52,638 --> 00:48:55,266
The science is out, the studies
have been conducted.
1006
00:48:55,307 --> 00:48:58,227
We've seen several hundred years
of safe traditional use.
1007
00:48:58,269 --> 00:49:00,229
And the answer is, as far as addiction
1008
00:49:00,271 --> 00:49:01,980
and habit-forming, anything can be that.
1009
00:49:02,022 --> 00:49:05,401
Nacho cheese, Coca-Cola. Whatever you want.
1010
00:49:05,443 --> 00:49:08,446
[Chris] Big Food spends billions to make
our food more addictive.
1011
00:49:08,487 --> 00:49:10,030
Sugar, fat, and salt
1012
00:49:10,072 --> 00:49:13,033
have been shown to have a
synergistic addictive effect.
1013
00:49:13,075 --> 00:49:15,661
Cheese even hits our opiate receptors.
1014
00:49:15,703 --> 00:49:18,163
Not nearly as strong as opioid drugs,
1015
00:49:18,205 --> 00:49:20,165
but it does the same thing.
1016
00:49:20,207 --> 00:49:22,251
It leaves us wanting more.
1017
00:49:22,293 --> 00:49:25,296
In the food world, it's all about the flavor,
1018
00:49:25,337 --> 00:49:27,339
the texture, and the crunch.
1019
00:49:27,381 --> 00:49:30,967
And there's a concept called
vanishing caloric density.
1020
00:49:31,009 --> 00:49:32,720
If a food melts quickly,
1021
00:49:32,762 --> 00:49:34,764
your brain thinks it has no calories,
1022
00:49:34,806 --> 00:49:36,557
and you can eat it forever.
1023
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:38,225
Kinda like cheesy poofs.
1024
00:49:38,267 --> 00:49:40,645
And companies study the hell out of it.
1025
00:49:40,686 --> 00:49:43,397
I actually have been
talking to a lot of people
1026
00:49:43,439 --> 00:49:46,275
that use kratom to get off of opiates.
1027
00:49:46,317 --> 00:49:48,486
We've seen it a lot, you know.
1028
00:49:48,527 --> 00:49:51,280
Do you think that's, like,
kinda playing with fire?
1029
00:49:51,322 --> 00:49:53,908
What do you think the problem is there?
1030
00:49:53,950 --> 00:49:56,786
Well, I think there's several things
that need to be clear.
1031
00:49:56,828 --> 00:49:59,996
First of all, to the degree that
it's completely unregulated,
1032
00:50:00,038 --> 00:50:02,625
so, when someone says, "I'm taking kratom,
and I feel just fine."
1033
00:50:02,667 --> 00:50:04,961
Really? How do you know what's in that packet?
1034
00:50:05,001 --> 00:50:06,921
Because it's completely unregulated,
1035
00:50:06,963 --> 00:50:09,590
you don't know if there's even any kratom
in there at all.
1036
00:50:09,632 --> 00:50:11,592
[Chris] Well, she could be right.
1037
00:50:11,634 --> 00:50:14,762
There may not be any kratom in those packages.
1038
00:50:14,804 --> 00:50:18,724
That sounds like the unregulated world
of dietary supplements.
1039
00:50:18,766 --> 00:50:21,727
Ten years ago, I showed the world
how easy it was
1040
00:50:21,769 --> 00:50:24,313
to make dietary supplements in my kitchen,
1041
00:50:24,355 --> 00:50:26,273
and nobody could stop me.
1042
00:50:26,315 --> 00:50:30,402
The problem is I can still
do that, until I get caught.
1043
00:50:30,444 --> 00:50:33,489
Although it's the law, and people
are ingesting these pills,
1044
00:50:33,531 --> 00:50:37,159
many companies just don't care,
and don't follow the rules.
1045
00:50:37,201 --> 00:50:39,912
Look, I know some of these manufacturers,
1046
00:50:39,954 --> 00:50:44,333
and like, some of them just manufacture it
in their garage.
1047
00:50:44,375 --> 00:50:47,795
They manufacture in their living room.
1048
00:50:47,837 --> 00:50:50,130
They're packing capsules in their living room.
1049
00:50:50,172 --> 00:50:52,800
They put it in a jar and they take
it to smoke shops and sell it.
1050
00:50:52,842 --> 00:50:55,970
I think there needs to be
some regulation on it.
1051
00:50:56,012 --> 00:51:01,266
There has to be, you know, FDA compliant
companies that package it in a warehouse.
1052
00:51:01,308 --> 00:51:04,478
[Chris] Lot of the packaging, on the back
it says, "Not for human consumption."
1053
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,772
What's the deal with that,
and why's that going on?
1054
00:51:06,814 --> 00:51:08,858
[Wiese] I think it's because
1055
00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:10,818
that's how they get it into the country.
1056
00:51:10,860 --> 00:51:12,778
They don't wanna have it tested.
1057
00:51:12,820 --> 00:51:16,072
These fly-by-night companies, as I call them,
1058
00:51:16,114 --> 00:51:18,200
that package it in their garage,
1059
00:51:18,242 --> 00:51:21,412
they can't afford to send it off
to get it tested.
1060
00:51:21,453 --> 00:51:23,789
Do you have more of an issue
with the industry or the DEA?
1061
00:51:23,831 --> 00:51:25,666
Way more with the industry.
1062
00:51:25,708 --> 00:51:29,045
Way more. The DEA/FDA, they're pretty
consistent about what they wanna do.
1063
00:51:29,085 --> 00:51:30,337
They're just doing their job.
1064
00:51:30,379 --> 00:51:31,505
Yeah, they're just doing their job,
1065
00:51:31,547 --> 00:51:32,965
and they're doing it for a reason.
1066
00:51:33,007 --> 00:51:34,926
They've got one of the toughest jobs
in the world.
1067
00:51:34,967 --> 00:51:37,177
They have to ensure our food supply is safe.
1068
00:51:37,219 --> 00:51:40,222
Or, you know, if there is a problem, they have
to step in to take care of it.
1069
00:51:40,264 --> 00:51:43,726
The fact that this industry is not
regulated, is that an issue for you?
1070
00:51:43,768 --> 00:51:46,979
It's a huge issue, I mean,
it's one of the most
1071
00:51:47,021 --> 00:51:49,648
aggravating, frustrating
things that, we as a group,
1072
00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:51,358
you know, the people that are
in this business,
1073
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,151
we get together, and we talk about
how do we make this better.
1074
00:51:53,193 --> 00:51:54,695
How do we keep the longevity going?
1075
00:51:54,737 --> 00:51:57,448
Everybody knows that every legislator
we've talked to,
1076
00:51:57,489 --> 00:51:59,199
interacted with, everybody says
1077
00:51:59,241 --> 00:52:02,078
the only way this stays is if we regulate it.
1078
00:52:02,118 --> 00:52:04,496
Nobody's making the move towards regulation.
1079
00:52:04,538 --> 00:52:06,540
For lack of better terminology,
1080
00:52:06,582 --> 00:52:09,376
this industry operates like a bunch of
head shops, little fucking drug dealers.
1081
00:52:09,418 --> 00:52:10,920
Nobody wants to work together.
1082
00:52:10,962 --> 00:52:13,129
Everybody wants to do their own thing quietly.
1083
00:52:13,171 --> 00:52:15,466
And we operate like a bunch of drug dealers.
1084
00:52:15,507 --> 00:52:17,760
So, the rules in the supplement world say
1085
00:52:17,802 --> 00:52:20,012
you're either an FDA-compliant label,
1086
00:52:20,054 --> 00:52:22,431
or you are not for human consumption.
1087
00:52:22,473 --> 00:52:24,391
You are an adulterated
product, you're not legal,
1088
00:52:24,433 --> 00:52:25,935
you shouldn't be able to sell it,
1089
00:52:25,977 --> 00:52:28,186
because the people don't have...
1090
00:52:28,228 --> 00:52:30,522
I mean, the people have the right to know
what they're gonna ingest.
1091
00:52:30,564 --> 00:52:32,817
And if you do not have FDA-compliant labeling,
1092
00:52:32,858 --> 00:52:34,735
you're not disclosing what's in the package,
1093
00:52:34,777 --> 00:52:36,361
whether it's safe, whether it's been
tested either.
1094
00:52:36,403 --> 00:52:37,905
It's all about money, right? Comes down to...
1095
00:52:37,947 --> 00:52:39,490
The majority of the vendors,
1096
00:52:39,531 --> 00:52:41,909
every week, they post this
little list on Reddit
1097
00:52:41,951 --> 00:52:43,953
where these guys are just the dirtbag
1098
00:52:43,995 --> 00:52:46,622
of dirtbags trying to sell the cheapest kratom
out there.
1099
00:52:46,664 --> 00:52:48,916
When we have conversations, "Why don't you
test your product?"
1100
00:52:48,958 --> 00:52:51,002
- "Well, I would have to sell it for more."
- Yeah.
1101
00:52:51,043 --> 00:52:54,212
"Or why don't you put this
through a pharmaceutical
1102
00:52:54,254 --> 00:52:56,090
co-packer and get this done right?"
1103
00:52:56,132 --> 00:52:57,967
"Well, I can't afford to do that."
1104
00:52:58,009 --> 00:52:59,468
Then you shouldn't be in the business.
1105
00:52:59,510 --> 00:53:01,720
- Sure.
- Then you got no right to be in this business.
1106
00:53:01,762 --> 00:53:02,972
[Chris] In the early '90s,
1107
00:53:03,014 --> 00:53:05,057
FDA Commissioner David Kessler
1108
00:53:05,099 --> 00:53:08,769
was concerned with the safety of
dietary supplements on the market.
1109
00:53:08,811 --> 00:53:12,314
So, he proposed a plan that would
treat supplements more like drugs.
1110
00:53:12,356 --> 00:53:14,232
To get approved by the FDA,
1111
00:53:14,274 --> 00:53:17,695
a drug needs to meet both
safety and efficacy standards.
1112
00:53:17,736 --> 00:53:19,446
But that would be really expensive
1113
00:53:19,488 --> 00:53:21,073
and cut into the profit.
1114
00:53:21,115 --> 00:53:23,034
Enter the DSHEA Act,
1115
00:53:23,075 --> 00:53:25,410
spearheaded by Senator Orrin Hatch.
1116
00:53:25,452 --> 00:53:28,372
He's from Utah, where they make about 80%
1117
00:53:28,413 --> 00:53:30,457
of the world's dietary supplements.
1118
00:53:30,499 --> 00:53:32,292
He thought it'd be crazy to require companies
1119
00:53:32,334 --> 00:53:33,794
to do safety studies
1120
00:53:33,836 --> 00:53:36,505
on those pills granny's
been poppin' for 50 years,
1121
00:53:36,547 --> 00:53:39,508
so he created a Dietary Supplement Health
Education Act
1122
00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:41,177
and rushed it through Congress...
1123
00:53:41,217 --> 00:53:43,261
[flushing]
1124
00:53:43,303 --> 00:53:45,389
On the last day of session.
1125
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:48,350
Any supplement created
and marketed in the U.S.
1126
00:53:48,392 --> 00:53:51,687
as a dietary supplement before 1994,
1127
00:53:51,729 --> 00:53:53,814
was grandfathered into the system.
1128
00:53:53,856 --> 00:53:57,109
So, your vitamins from A to Zinc are safe.
1129
00:53:57,151 --> 00:54:00,404
Hey, we can live our dreams.
1130
00:54:00,445 --> 00:54:03,866
But how do we know what's on the label
is in the bottle?
1131
00:54:03,908 --> 00:54:05,159
We don't.
1132
00:54:05,201 --> 00:54:07,494
Enter GMP regulation.
1133
00:54:07,536 --> 00:54:11,082
GMP just means Good Manufacturing Practices.
1134
00:54:11,123 --> 00:54:13,584
It means products must prove their purity
1135
00:54:13,625 --> 00:54:15,502
and test for things like mold,
1136
00:54:15,544 --> 00:54:18,547
bacteria, salmonella, and E. coli.
1137
00:54:18,589 --> 00:54:21,092
According to a recent episode of Frontline,
1138
00:54:21,133 --> 00:54:22,885
because of the DSHEA Act,
1139
00:54:22,927 --> 00:54:27,347
the supplement industry boomed to
over 85,000 products on the market,
1140
00:54:27,389 --> 00:54:30,142
from over 4,000 manufacturers.
1141
00:54:30,184 --> 00:54:33,437
And the FDA only has a team of 25 people
1142
00:54:33,478 --> 00:54:35,064
to police it.
1143
00:54:35,106 --> 00:54:38,234
Only a small portion of supplements
ever get checked on.
1144
00:54:38,316 --> 00:54:39,985
So, should we even be concerned
1145
00:54:40,027 --> 00:54:42,238
that kratom isn't part of this broken system?
1146
00:54:44,698 --> 00:54:47,283
Or should we be looking for a new system?
1147
00:54:47,325 --> 00:54:49,203
You know, it's significant. People are putting
these products
1148
00:54:49,245 --> 00:54:51,247
in their body. They're adulterated products,
1149
00:54:51,287 --> 00:54:52,539
and there is a health risk,
1150
00:54:52,581 --> 00:54:54,250
public health risk imparted into that,
1151
00:54:54,290 --> 00:54:55,751
and that's where our concern lies.
1152
00:54:55,793 --> 00:54:57,628
[Chris] This is Daniel Fabricant.
1153
00:54:57,669 --> 00:54:59,922
He's the CEO of the Supplement Lobby Group
1154
00:54:59,964 --> 00:55:02,258
and Natural Products Association.
1155
00:55:02,298 --> 00:55:05,219
Yet, he won't accept kratom
as a natural product.
1156
00:55:05,261 --> 00:55:07,012
You wanna still have kratom on the market.
1157
00:55:07,054 --> 00:55:08,931
I like it, I use it, you know, for pain.
1158
00:55:08,973 --> 00:55:10,808
- So I like it.
- I think you go to...
1159
00:55:10,849 --> 00:55:13,018
For pain, now pain is gonna
be into the drug side.
1160
00:55:13,060 --> 00:55:14,186
- Sure.
- Okay.
1161
00:55:14,228 --> 00:55:15,771
So, if you wanna use it for chronic pain,
1162
00:55:15,813 --> 00:55:17,815
you go to those kratom manufacturers
1163
00:55:17,856 --> 00:55:19,858
and you go, "Hey, you guys have
to develop this as a drug."
1164
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:21,110
But I don't wanna be on a drug.
1165
00:55:21,152 --> 00:55:22,861
- I just wanna take the natural plant.
- Okay.
1166
00:55:22,903 --> 00:55:24,571
Chris, Chris,
1167
00:55:24,613 --> 00:55:26,573
the point is you're making a drug claim,
that makes it a drug,
1168
00:55:26,615 --> 00:55:29,367
by law, 'cause you're treating something.
1169
00:55:29,409 --> 00:55:31,745
Now, that's the real issue here.
1170
00:55:31,787 --> 00:55:33,872
Its intended use is everything.
1171
00:55:33,914 --> 00:55:36,583
And if the intended use is as a drug,
well, then you go that process.
1172
00:55:36,625 --> 00:55:38,252
If the intended use is as a food...
1173
00:55:38,294 --> 00:55:40,462
If you said, "Hey, Dan, I
just wanna use it because
1174
00:55:42,089 --> 00:55:44,133
I'm in a better mood when I use it.
1175
00:55:44,175 --> 00:55:46,010
I feel, you know, slightly better."
1176
00:55:46,051 --> 00:55:47,886
Not that you have anxiety
or anything else like that,
1177
00:55:47,928 --> 00:55:49,638
but, you know, you're a healthy person,
1178
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,557
and you wanna help elevate your mood.
1179
00:55:52,599 --> 00:55:54,392
Well, then that would be
1180
00:55:54,434 --> 00:55:58,522
the food or the supplement route.
Again, that requires that safety study.
1181
00:55:58,563 --> 00:56:00,482
There's no special exemption.
1182
00:56:00,524 --> 00:56:02,734
My daughter also thinks that when I
kiss her finger and she has a boo-boo,
1183
00:56:02,776 --> 00:56:04,444
that it helps it heal.
1184
00:56:04,486 --> 00:56:06,571
Well, my lips aren't getting
approved by the FDA anytime soon,
1185
00:56:06,613 --> 00:56:08,115
no matter how much she believes that.
1186
00:56:08,157 --> 00:56:11,076
It's an issue that gets brought
up and everybody goes,
1187
00:56:11,118 --> 00:56:12,494
"It's addiction, right?"
1188
00:56:12,536 --> 00:56:13,996
And then everybody goes,
"Well, what about caffeine,
1189
00:56:14,038 --> 00:56:16,123
what about alcohol, what about tobacco?"
1190
00:56:16,165 --> 00:56:17,373
I guess, what about all that stuff?
1191
00:56:17,415 --> 00:56:19,668
Alcohol is regulated one way.
1192
00:56:19,710 --> 00:56:21,879
We don't let people, you
know, under 21 have it.
1193
00:56:23,421 --> 00:56:26,925
Hello... Mindy.
1194
00:56:26,967 --> 00:56:29,303
But you also have data with regards to the use
of alcohol
1195
00:56:29,345 --> 00:56:30,470
and things like that.
1196
00:56:31,096 --> 00:56:32,139
Tobacco, similarly.
1197
00:56:32,181 --> 00:56:33,891
Tobacco is regulated now by FDA,
1198
00:56:33,932 --> 00:56:36,518
Center for Tobacco Products.
1199
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,104
There are also products that have been
approved by the FDA on the drug side
1200
00:56:39,146 --> 00:56:41,648
to help you overcome nicotine addiction.
1201
00:56:41,690 --> 00:56:44,400
So, you know, again, I think with both
of those areas,
1202
00:56:44,442 --> 00:56:47,196
and I'm certainly not advocating the use of
1203
00:56:47,238 --> 00:56:49,198
tobacco or alcohol,
1204
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:51,075
- but there's...
- Sure. [laughs]
1205
00:56:51,116 --> 00:56:52,492
...there's a scientific base.
1206
00:56:52,534 --> 00:56:54,619
- Yeah.
- And I think that's where
1207
00:56:54,661 --> 00:56:56,496
you know, where some of the issues are.
1208
00:56:56,538 --> 00:56:59,415
I just wanna see people, no matter whatever
they're selling,
1209
00:57:00,251 --> 00:57:02,002
whether it's the industry,
1210
00:57:02,044 --> 00:57:03,837
whether it's FDA,
1211
00:57:03,879 --> 00:57:07,674
whether it's, you know, someone in
the industry with a new product.
1212
00:57:07,716 --> 00:57:10,177
There's a system there. Use a system,
use it appropriately.
1213
00:57:10,219 --> 00:57:11,720
We're gonna promote the
use of natural products.
1214
00:57:11,762 --> 00:57:13,180
It doesn't help anybody when...
1215
00:57:13,222 --> 00:57:15,349
- Sure.
- ...people are, you know, selling things that,
1216
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,394
with claims that make them drugs.
1217
00:57:18,435 --> 00:57:21,313
[Chris] I think what we have here
is a vocabulary problem,
1218
00:57:21,355 --> 00:57:22,981
not a drug problem.
1219
00:57:23,023 --> 00:57:26,193
The powers that be classify kratom
by its intended use.
1220
00:57:26,235 --> 00:57:27,736
So, according to the law,
1221
00:57:27,778 --> 00:57:30,114
if your intention is to elevate your mood,
1222
00:57:30,155 --> 00:57:32,449
or stay awake, then it's totally fine,
1223
00:57:32,490 --> 00:57:35,535
and you can sell it as a supplement
at a gas station
1224
00:57:35,577 --> 00:57:37,662
with all sorts of claims on the bottle.
1225
00:57:37,704 --> 00:57:40,374
But if your intention is to get out of pain,
1226
00:57:40,416 --> 00:57:41,959
or to get off of opiates,
1227
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:43,961
all of a sudden, it's a drug,
1228
00:57:44,002 --> 00:57:46,255
and it will require years of studies,
1229
00:57:46,297 --> 00:57:49,383
and costs, on average, a billion dollars
to get to market.
1230
00:57:49,425 --> 00:57:51,009
Same exact substance.
1231
00:57:51,051 --> 00:57:54,179
The way that this works is you actually
train the animals
1232
00:57:54,221 --> 00:57:55,472
to press a lever
1233
00:57:55,513 --> 00:57:57,057
so many times, and after so many times,
1234
00:57:57,099 --> 00:57:59,017
they get an injection of morphine.
1235
00:57:59,059 --> 00:58:01,686
They can get food or they can get drug,
1236
00:58:01,728 --> 00:58:03,855
and they can choose between one or the other,
1237
00:58:03,897 --> 00:58:05,232
and they usually end up
1238
00:58:05,274 --> 00:58:06,817
choosing the drug.
1239
00:58:06,858 --> 00:58:09,069
[Chris] It makes addiction
sound so simple, it's like,
1240
00:58:09,111 --> 00:58:10,946
you hit this, you get a reward,
1241
00:58:10,988 --> 00:58:12,489
I like it, I'm gonna do it again.
1242
00:58:12,530 --> 00:58:14,532
[McCurdy] Unfortunately,
addiction as a disease,
1243
00:58:14,574 --> 00:58:17,328
is that simple. A lot of people say
it's a choice.
1244
00:58:17,369 --> 00:58:21,248
I, honestly, don't believe it's ever a choice,
1245
00:58:21,290 --> 00:58:22,833
except for maybe the first time.
1246
00:58:22,874 --> 00:58:25,794
The people that are anti-kratom,
I should say,
1247
00:58:25,836 --> 00:58:29,006
are saying like, "Look, if it's so good,
why isn't pharma coming after it?"
1248
00:58:29,047 --> 00:58:31,425
I know exactly why pharma
isn't going after it.
1249
00:58:31,467 --> 00:58:32,884
Because you can't get a patent around it.
1250
00:58:32,926 --> 00:58:36,013
We filed a patent for use as a treatment
1251
00:58:36,054 --> 00:58:38,723
for any kind of drug withdrawal.
1252
00:58:38,765 --> 00:58:41,393
- [Chris] And it didn't go through?
- It didn't go through.
1253
00:58:41,435 --> 00:58:44,480
Actually, we met with more rejections from
the U.S. Patent Office
1254
00:58:44,521 --> 00:58:47,232
than our patent attorneys
said they've ever seen.
1255
00:58:47,274 --> 00:58:49,026
[Singh] People have this perception that
1256
00:58:49,067 --> 00:58:51,362
regular kratom use could actually cause
1257
00:58:51,403 --> 00:58:54,365
serious dependence, and then you abstain
from kratom use,
1258
00:58:54,406 --> 00:58:57,075
it leads to severe withdrawal symptoms.
1259
00:58:57,117 --> 00:58:58,660
I don't think so.
1260
00:58:58,702 --> 00:59:02,206
The only thing is, you need
to know how to use kratom
1261
00:59:02,247 --> 00:59:04,082
correctly, because in America,
1262
00:59:04,124 --> 00:59:06,835
I believe that people don't
really know how to use kratom.
1263
00:59:06,877 --> 00:59:09,505
So, you think that we're just
scraping the surface here?
1264
00:59:09,546 --> 00:59:11,840
You think that we can actually go further,
1265
00:59:11,882 --> 00:59:14,885
- if we start learning how to properly use this.
- Exactly. Exactly.
1266
00:59:14,926 --> 00:59:17,221
If they can come, we can all come together
1267
00:59:17,262 --> 00:59:18,680
- and do good science.
- Exactly.
1268
00:59:18,722 --> 00:59:20,807
And you know, provide some kind of funding
1269
00:59:20,849 --> 00:59:22,226
to Christopher McCurdy,
1270
00:59:22,267 --> 00:59:24,353
then we can actually do good science,
1271
00:59:24,395 --> 00:59:27,189
because I see it now, kratom
has negative picture.
1272
00:59:27,231 --> 00:59:29,774
The government is not gonna
provide any funding.
1273
00:59:29,816 --> 00:59:33,237
It is difficult because, as I said,
we are at the initial stage.
1274
00:59:33,278 --> 00:59:35,864
And you get to see kratom-using population
is growing,
1275
00:59:35,906 --> 00:59:37,824
and growing, and growing, and growing.
1276
00:59:37,866 --> 00:59:41,495
You have a PhD in addiction. Have you
seen people die from crystal meth?
1277
00:59:41,537 --> 00:59:43,747
- Of course, I've seen...
- Have you seen people die from heroin?
1278
00:59:43,788 --> 00:59:44,915
Of course, I've seen.
1279
00:59:44,956 --> 00:59:47,042
And zero from kratom? [chuckles]
1280
00:59:47,084 --> 00:59:49,711
From kratom, I've not seen any
serious medical problems.
1281
00:59:49,753 --> 00:59:50,962
Dr. Holcomb,
1282
00:59:51,004 --> 00:59:53,257
next, you're a board-certified
general surgeon,
1283
00:59:53,298 --> 00:59:57,886
practicing physician, who,
at first, was against
1284
00:59:57,928 --> 01:00:00,264
kratom, but your personal experience
1285
01:00:00,305 --> 01:00:02,933
with your son changed your opinion.
1286
01:00:02,974 --> 01:00:06,228
[Chris] Dr. Murray Holcomb is a
general surgeon in Austin, Texas.
1287
01:00:06,270 --> 01:00:09,147
His son, Grant, battled addiction
and depression.
1288
01:00:09,189 --> 01:00:11,942
And when he got out of rehab, he found kratom.
1289
01:00:11,983 --> 01:00:14,778
Which seems to be the one thing
that really helps him.
1290
01:00:14,819 --> 01:00:17,114
He's up in the tree, so...
1291
01:00:17,155 --> 01:00:18,949
- Oh, he's up there.
- Yeah.
1292
01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:21,952
[Grant] I got a DWI, and I totaled my car
1293
01:00:21,993 --> 01:00:24,162
just, like, five days before
I went into treatment.
1294
01:00:24,204 --> 01:00:27,624
So, it wasn't your typical intervention
1295
01:00:27,665 --> 01:00:29,709
where I walked in, like,
1296
01:00:29,751 --> 01:00:31,962
they had planned it out or anything like that.
1297
01:00:32,003 --> 01:00:34,923
[Murray] Addiction later became
a significant part of that.
1298
01:00:34,965 --> 01:00:36,133
Although,
1299
01:00:37,384 --> 01:00:41,221
probably more often than not,
1300
01:00:41,263 --> 01:00:43,557
addiction with issues that...
1301
01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:45,767
Or medications that were
prescribed by other physicians.
1302
01:00:45,809 --> 01:00:48,520
I had a really bad leg injury in high school,
1303
01:00:48,562 --> 01:00:50,063
wrecked a four-wheeler,
1304
01:00:50,105 --> 01:00:53,066
and snapped my leg, you know, like, thirds,
1305
01:00:53,108 --> 01:00:56,736
so, that's the first time I was introduced to
you know, painkillers.
1306
01:00:56,778 --> 01:00:58,655
What were your days like back then?
1307
01:00:58,696 --> 01:01:00,657
[Grant] Take two swigs off the bottle
1308
01:01:00,698 --> 01:01:03,076
that was next to my bed on the nightstand.
1309
01:01:03,118 --> 01:01:04,911
Pop a couple of my Xanax.
1310
01:01:04,953 --> 01:01:07,122
Do that just so I would be able to go to work,
1311
01:01:07,164 --> 01:01:09,291
so I could get myself out of bed,
1312
01:01:09,333 --> 01:01:10,584
and go to work,
1313
01:01:10,626 --> 01:01:13,504
and work a full day,
1314
01:01:13,545 --> 01:01:16,507
but, throughout that day,
popping pills as needed.
1315
01:01:16,548 --> 01:01:19,884
Kinda get myself through
that, and then buy a bottle
1316
01:01:19,926 --> 01:01:21,845
and work on finishing it.
1317
01:01:21,886 --> 01:01:25,849
One in five adults will experience
a mental health issue
1318
01:01:25,890 --> 01:01:27,309
in any given year.
1319
01:01:27,351 --> 01:01:30,521
One in 25, approximately, are
severe mental health issues.
1320
01:01:30,562 --> 01:01:32,606
It interferes with their ability
to function,
1321
01:01:32,648 --> 01:01:35,108
or is disruptive to their life.
1322
01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:39,904
Thirteen percent of the population
is on antidepressants.
1323
01:01:39,946 --> 01:01:43,992
I'd happened to visit a shop that had
kratom behind the counter.
1324
01:01:44,034 --> 01:01:46,203
I decided, in a good way,
1325
01:01:46,244 --> 01:01:48,997
to try that before I got to the hotel room
1326
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:51,041
and got a bottle or anything like that.
1327
01:01:51,082 --> 01:01:54,503
And from that first day that I took it again,
1328
01:01:54,545 --> 01:01:58,089
and it had been probably two or three years
since I had taken it,
1329
01:01:58,131 --> 01:02:01,677
that desire to get my hands
on drugs or alcohol,
1330
01:02:01,718 --> 01:02:03,136
like, completely left.
1331
01:02:03,178 --> 01:02:05,930
Kratom seemed to step in and give him just...
1332
01:02:05,972 --> 01:02:09,017
For whatever imbalance he had,
1333
01:02:09,059 --> 01:02:10,852
that's the key that fits him.
1334
01:02:10,894 --> 01:02:13,813
So, from that point on, and he'll be
the first to tell you
1335
01:02:13,855 --> 01:02:15,773
that it's not just kratom,
1336
01:02:15,815 --> 01:02:17,859
it's, you know, working on spirituality,
1337
01:02:17,901 --> 01:02:21,238
his relationship with God, going
to meetings, giving back,
1338
01:02:21,279 --> 01:02:23,781
exercise. Takes kratom twice a day.
1339
01:02:23,823 --> 01:02:26,243
He's not high, loopy,
1340
01:02:26,284 --> 01:02:28,203
forgetful, inappropriate,
1341
01:02:29,246 --> 01:02:30,706
- anything.
- His eyes are clear,
1342
01:02:30,747 --> 01:02:33,709
- and we've seen him. We've seen him...
- Yeah.
1343
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:35,001
Anything but normal.
1344
01:02:35,043 --> 01:02:37,003
[Chris] Do you feel like it's addictive?
1345
01:02:37,045 --> 01:02:39,172
I think it's got addictive
properties, for sure.
1346
01:02:39,214 --> 01:02:41,049
I mean, obviously,
1347
01:02:41,091 --> 01:02:42,884
but, and not necessarily
1348
01:02:42,926 --> 01:02:45,011
physically, but, you know, psychologically,
1349
01:02:45,053 --> 01:02:47,222
if there's something that's gonna make you
feel better,
1350
01:02:48,682 --> 01:02:51,560
you know, I feel like that's addictive.
1351
01:02:51,602 --> 01:02:54,438
[Chris] Now that I'm sober, one
of my favorite things to do
1352
01:02:54,479 --> 01:02:56,147
is to help other people
1353
01:02:56,189 --> 01:02:58,275
by sharing my story at meetings.
1354
01:02:58,316 --> 01:03:01,319
I was excited to speak at Cliffside, Malibu,
1355
01:03:01,361 --> 01:03:03,238
the place where I got sober.
1356
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,115
But then I got a phone call.
1357
01:03:05,156 --> 01:03:06,824
So Mindy,
1358
01:03:06,866 --> 01:03:08,535
- Who is our mutual friend,
- Yes.
1359
01:03:08,577 --> 01:03:10,120
Just blew you out.
1360
01:03:10,161 --> 01:03:11,705
Said, "We love you,
1361
01:03:11,747 --> 01:03:14,082
we don't have a judgment on the kratom,
1362
01:03:14,124 --> 01:03:15,584
but you're not speaking at our meeting."
1363
01:03:15,626 --> 01:03:17,252
- That's what happened.
- Yes, sure.
1364
01:03:17,294 --> 01:03:18,962
How'd that make you feel?
1365
01:03:19,003 --> 01:03:22,132
I kinda felt hurt... It hurt my feelings,
to tell you the truth.
1366
01:03:22,173 --> 01:03:24,801
Now, I love Mindy, it had
nothing to do with her,
1367
01:03:24,842 --> 01:03:28,305
it's just that I felt like
maybe I wasn't sober anymore.
1368
01:03:28,346 --> 01:03:29,931
And I don't know, like,
1369
01:03:29,973 --> 01:03:32,476
you know, I mean, am I?
1370
01:03:32,517 --> 01:03:34,352
Where does that leave you?
1371
01:03:34,394 --> 01:03:36,647
Taking something that's not ever been
1372
01:03:36,688 --> 01:03:39,983
put in a category, or put in, you know,
1373
01:03:40,024 --> 01:03:42,778
in a box. I just take it because I'm in pain.
1374
01:03:42,819 --> 01:03:45,071
Well, I don't know enough about it.
1375
01:03:46,364 --> 01:03:48,784
And I've done some serious study
1376
01:03:48,825 --> 01:03:50,868
over the last few days.
1377
01:03:50,910 --> 01:03:54,539
You know, I've got Connie who is an addiction
research fellow.
1378
01:03:54,581 --> 01:03:57,083
And she's given me so much to read
1379
01:03:57,125 --> 01:03:59,586
that when I couldn't read anymore,
1380
01:03:59,628 --> 01:04:03,006
I had somebody sit in my
office and read to me.
1381
01:04:03,881 --> 01:04:05,801
There's no uniformity
1382
01:04:05,842 --> 01:04:08,219
in making the drug.
1383
01:04:08,261 --> 01:04:12,056
There's no uniformity in
the dosage of the drug.
1384
01:04:13,016 --> 01:04:15,352
And ironically enough,
1385
01:04:15,393 --> 01:04:18,480
I'm actually treating a
couple of people right now
1386
01:04:18,522 --> 01:04:20,357
at Cliffside
1387
01:04:20,398 --> 01:04:23,360
who have been abusing kratom.
1388
01:04:23,819 --> 01:04:25,028
Okay.
1389
01:04:25,654 --> 01:04:27,155
Having said that...
1390
01:04:29,700 --> 01:04:32,118
it would be criminal,
1391
01:04:33,036 --> 01:04:34,538
bordering on the criminal,
1392
01:04:35,913 --> 01:04:38,750
to not do the research
1393
01:04:38,792 --> 01:04:43,880
to figure out what the appropriate
medicinal purposes are.
1394
01:04:43,921 --> 01:04:46,508
People abuse everything.
1395
01:04:46,550 --> 01:04:49,135
Well, Chris, you're just defending your right
1396
01:04:49,177 --> 01:04:50,804
to use this substance.
1397
01:04:50,846 --> 01:04:52,930
- Sure.
- Just like any other addict would.
1398
01:04:52,972 --> 01:04:54,932
- So, how do we know?
- Mm-hmm.
1399
01:04:54,974 --> 01:04:56,852
And the truth is, we don't know.
1400
01:04:56,893 --> 01:05:00,271
Now, I know you, and I believe you.
1401
01:05:00,313 --> 01:05:03,441
Okay? You look fine to me.
1402
01:05:03,483 --> 01:05:05,736
I've never seen you look this good.
1403
01:05:05,777 --> 01:05:07,320
Never seen you this calm.
1404
01:05:07,362 --> 01:05:09,197
We get about 100 calls a day
1405
01:05:09,239 --> 01:05:12,116
from people trying to get
off drugs and alcohol.
1406
01:05:12,158 --> 01:05:14,411
Ninety calls
1407
01:05:14,452 --> 01:05:16,830
are because of prescription opiates.
1408
01:05:16,872 --> 01:05:18,415
Ninety of them.
1409
01:05:18,456 --> 01:05:21,918
Why do you think that nobody's
stopping the opiate epidemic?
1410
01:05:21,959 --> 01:05:23,670
Let's talk about why it's happening.
1411
01:05:25,255 --> 01:05:28,132
Why it's happening is
1412
01:05:28,174 --> 01:05:31,636
there is no advertising necessary
1413
01:05:33,471 --> 01:05:34,639
for opiates.
1414
01:05:34,681 --> 01:05:36,266
- [Chris] You never see it.
- Never.
1415
01:05:36,307 --> 01:05:39,394
If you stop taking opiates, you get sick.
1416
01:05:40,144 --> 01:05:41,479
You don't have a choice.
1417
01:05:41,521 --> 01:05:43,940
People think slavery ended in 1865,
1418
01:05:43,981 --> 01:05:47,985
it didn't. It's going on right now in 2017.
1419
01:05:48,027 --> 01:05:50,697
Okay? Slavery exists today.
1420
01:05:50,739 --> 01:05:52,657
Okay? If you're on opiates,
1421
01:05:52,699 --> 01:05:54,534
you are a slave.
1422
01:05:54,576 --> 01:05:58,204
You're not controlling that drug, that drug
is controlling you.
1423
01:05:58,246 --> 01:06:01,291
Everything you got. Every goddamn pill.
1424
01:06:01,332 --> 01:06:04,586
[Chris] So, how long does a
shipment this size last?
1425
01:06:04,628 --> 01:06:06,003
How long does it take to sell this?
1426
01:06:06,045 --> 01:06:07,798
- About a month. Yeah.
- Really?
1427
01:06:07,839 --> 01:06:10,049
- 2,500 pounds of kratom in a month?
- Kilos.
1428
01:06:10,091 --> 01:06:12,093
Kilos of kratom in a month.
1429
01:06:12,135 --> 01:06:13,637
[shutter rolls]
1430
01:06:13,678 --> 01:06:16,848
So, from here what happens
is, once we open these,
1431
01:06:16,890 --> 01:06:19,517
then the next thing we're gonna do is
we're gonna test it.
1432
01:06:19,559 --> 01:06:23,313
Whenever we send product out for testing,
like all of this product sitting here,
1433
01:06:23,354 --> 01:06:26,733
none of this can be used yet, because
we don't have test results back yet.
1434
01:06:26,775 --> 01:06:28,067
So every batch, you have to test it?
1435
01:06:28,109 --> 01:06:29,945
- [Dunn] Have to, no, but we do.
- Yeah.
1436
01:06:29,986 --> 01:06:31,613
We actually test it three times.
1437
01:06:31,655 --> 01:06:33,865
The FDA put out this import alert that says,
1438
01:06:33,907 --> 01:06:37,034
we're not allowed to import this because
they don't feel it's safe.
1439
01:06:37,076 --> 01:06:39,496
- But they never tested it, so I mean...
- Sure.
1440
01:06:39,537 --> 01:06:42,206
They're basing their opinion without tests.
1441
01:06:42,248 --> 01:06:43,750
So many people talk shit about the FDA,
1442
01:06:43,792 --> 01:06:46,127
- but we really need to support the FDA...
- Yes, we do.
1443
01:06:46,169 --> 01:06:48,379
...because once everybody gets onboard,
1444
01:06:48,421 --> 01:06:52,008
and you know, when the FDA says,
"Okay, this is a full supplement,"
1445
01:06:52,049 --> 01:06:54,594
now, we go back to pharmaceutical co-packers.
1446
01:06:54,636 --> 01:06:57,263
- Yes.
- So, now everything's done in a clinical environment.
1447
01:06:57,305 --> 01:07:00,099
We don't have to build each
individual little segment.
1448
01:07:00,141 --> 01:07:03,353
I'm surprised there hasn't been a politician,
and maybe we need to find one,
1449
01:07:03,394 --> 01:07:05,689
that gets behind this.
1450
01:07:05,730 --> 01:07:08,775
142 Americans are dying every day
1451
01:07:08,817 --> 01:07:10,735
of drug overdose, every day.
1452
01:07:10,777 --> 01:07:15,949
Which means we have a 9/11-scale loss
every three weeks in America.
1453
01:07:15,991 --> 01:07:17,701
So, the first recommendation
we say to the president is,
1454
01:07:17,742 --> 01:07:19,577
you must declare national emergency.
1455
01:07:19,619 --> 01:07:21,955
This problem, Jake, is not happening,
1456
01:07:21,997 --> 01:07:23,790
it's not starting on our street corners.
1457
01:07:23,832 --> 01:07:26,626
It's starting in our doctors'
offices and hospitals.
1458
01:07:26,668 --> 01:07:29,587
[Chris] Another politician trying to fix this
opioid crisis
1459
01:07:29,629 --> 01:07:31,464
is Congressman Mark Pocan.
1460
01:07:31,506 --> 01:07:34,175
But kratom's illegal in
his state of Wisconsin,
1461
01:07:34,217 --> 01:07:36,135
and he wants to see that changed.
1462
01:07:36,177 --> 01:07:38,179
So, he and his colleague, Matt Salmon,
1463
01:07:38,221 --> 01:07:40,348
wrote a bipartisan letter to Congress
1464
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:42,392
begging them to keep kratom legal.
1465
01:07:42,433 --> 01:07:44,978
And they got 50 other congressmen to sign it,
1466
01:07:45,020 --> 01:07:48,105
which, by today's standards, is huge.
1467
01:07:48,147 --> 01:07:50,901
This is one where I think the other people
are way ahead of
1468
01:07:50,942 --> 01:07:53,110
elected officials, on issues like this.
1469
01:07:53,152 --> 01:07:54,863
They don't see it as an issue.
1470
01:07:54,905 --> 01:07:56,907
And when kratom came up again,
1471
01:07:56,948 --> 01:07:59,826
it's something that's been legal in virtually
every state in the country.
1472
01:07:59,868 --> 01:08:02,037
We haven't had problems with it,
1473
01:08:02,078 --> 01:08:04,372
and then, all of a sudden,
to see it go to Schedule I
1474
01:08:04,414 --> 01:08:06,457
just raised that red flag,
that we thought we needed
1475
01:08:06,499 --> 01:08:09,210
to at least try to find a
way to put brakes on it.
1476
01:08:09,252 --> 01:08:11,755
And I think the important part is
we did it in a bipartisan way,
1477
01:08:11,796 --> 01:08:13,172
'cause, you know, so often
1478
01:08:13,214 --> 01:08:14,841
things are either done from
the Left or the Right.
1479
01:08:14,883 --> 01:08:16,426
Sometimes you just gotta do it
1480
01:08:16,467 --> 01:08:18,762
right from where it needs to be addressed,
from both sides.
1481
01:08:18,803 --> 01:08:22,432
And do you think that banning kratom could
actually hurt people?
1482
01:08:22,473 --> 01:08:25,018
Absolutely. I mean, one... I mean, there are
a number of people
1483
01:08:25,060 --> 01:08:26,978
that we talked to since doing that,
1484
01:08:27,020 --> 01:08:29,188
who've shared stories like yours.
1485
01:08:29,230 --> 01:08:31,858
That this is something that helps them,
1486
01:08:31,900 --> 01:08:33,693
especially people who've
been addicted to opioids.
1487
01:08:33,735 --> 01:08:37,864
To take that away would seem wrong,
especially if there's not
1488
01:08:37,906 --> 01:08:40,283
hard evidence as a reason why, and so far,
1489
01:08:40,324 --> 01:08:42,035
I haven't seen any hard evidence
1490
01:08:42,077 --> 01:08:44,412
that makes sense why you could justify
1491
01:08:44,454 --> 01:08:45,580
putting it on Schedule I.
1492
01:08:45,622 --> 01:08:47,498
In fact, if anything, there's research,
1493
01:08:47,540 --> 01:08:51,168
including from universities that are looking
at the positive effects
1494
01:08:51,210 --> 01:08:53,004
of something like kratom.
1495
01:08:53,046 --> 01:08:54,881
Part of why we have the opioid problem
we have is that there is
1496
01:08:54,923 --> 01:08:56,883
almost an over-prescription of opioids,
1497
01:08:56,925 --> 01:09:00,177
and then an overreaction, like we often do,
to stopping it.
1498
01:09:00,219 --> 01:09:03,681
And then if people couldn't get now
what they got addicted to,
1499
01:09:03,723 --> 01:09:05,475
they went to the street and got heroin.
1500
01:09:05,516 --> 01:09:08,812
And I recently was visiting a hospital
in my district.
1501
01:09:08,853 --> 01:09:11,272
A doctor came late. He goes,
"I'm sorry, I had my daily
1502
01:09:11,314 --> 01:09:13,733
heroin overdose to deal with. I just got done.
1503
01:09:13,775 --> 01:09:16,027
I was dealing with someone who came in."
1504
01:09:16,069 --> 01:09:20,156
You know, we should be
shooting for every possible
1505
01:09:20,197 --> 01:09:23,701
alternative way to make sure you can
get people off of opioids.
1506
01:09:23,743 --> 01:09:26,579
And unfortunately, I don't
think we're doing that,
1507
01:09:26,621 --> 01:09:28,247
if we look at things like kratom
1508
01:09:28,289 --> 01:09:31,793
as Schedule I rather than,
potentially, a solution.
1509
01:09:31,835 --> 01:09:34,587
[Chris] Another potential solution
for this opioid crisis
1510
01:09:34,629 --> 01:09:36,297
might be ibogaine.
1511
01:09:36,339 --> 01:09:38,549
Iboga is a natural plant from Africa,
1512
01:09:38,591 --> 01:09:41,928
that can turn 20-year heroin addictions around
in hours.
1513
01:09:41,970 --> 01:09:45,723
The problem is it's a Schedule I drug
in the U.S.
1514
01:09:45,765 --> 01:09:49,144
Dr. Deborah Mash is the world's
leading researcher on ibogaine,
1515
01:09:49,185 --> 01:09:51,354
and she's fighting to make it legal.
1516
01:09:51,395 --> 01:09:53,564
But I wonder what she thinks about kratom.
1517
01:09:53,606 --> 01:09:55,692
Well, as you may know,
I've spent my life's work
1518
01:09:55,733 --> 01:09:57,944
working on a medication from Africa,
1519
01:09:57,986 --> 01:10:01,156
another natural product called ibogaine.
1520
01:10:01,197 --> 01:10:05,409
And ibogaine, which comes from
the region of Gabon in Cameroon,
1521
01:10:05,451 --> 01:10:09,039
another one of Mother Nature's alkaloids
1522
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:13,209
we know can be used to
successfully detox people
1523
01:10:13,250 --> 01:10:14,836
off of opiates.
1524
01:10:14,878 --> 01:10:17,338
So, my worry is that,
1525
01:10:17,380 --> 01:10:21,342
you know, we have people who
are not opiate abusers,
1526
01:10:21,384 --> 01:10:23,887
who have never partied with opiates,
1527
01:10:23,928 --> 01:10:27,182
who now get introduced to the euphoria
1528
01:10:27,223 --> 01:10:30,393
that kratom or mitragynine has.
1529
01:10:30,434 --> 01:10:35,272
I think there's pretty good evidence
that mitragynine is addictive.
1530
01:10:35,314 --> 01:10:39,819
I think there's no doubt about the science
behind that.
1531
01:10:39,861 --> 01:10:43,865
So, do we want another addicting opiate
on the planet?
1532
01:10:43,907 --> 01:10:46,076
Does it need to be studied more?
Sure, it does.
1533
01:10:46,117 --> 01:10:47,451
We need more research.
1534
01:10:47,493 --> 01:10:50,955
We need better molecules to treat addiction.
1535
01:10:50,997 --> 01:10:53,499
Is there a place for developing mitragynine
1536
01:10:53,541 --> 01:10:55,210
for the treatment of addiction?
1537
01:10:55,251 --> 01:10:56,669
I'm not sure.
1538
01:10:56,711 --> 01:11:00,173
There are many different
ways that you can substitute
1539
01:11:00,215 --> 01:11:05,011
an opiate to slide off of a heroin habit,
1540
01:11:05,053 --> 01:11:07,097
and to not suffer from the withdrawals.
1541
01:11:07,138 --> 01:11:08,723
And opiate withdrawals are terrible,
1542
01:11:08,765 --> 01:11:11,517
so, we understand why patients
1543
01:11:11,559 --> 01:11:14,938
may wanna have access to kratom.
1544
01:11:14,979 --> 01:11:16,856
Okay? But I want it regulated.
1545
01:11:16,898 --> 01:11:19,234
I don't want it being sold,
1546
01:11:19,275 --> 01:11:20,944
and maybe I'm getting old,
1547
01:11:20,985 --> 01:11:22,946
I don't want it being sold in head shops.
1548
01:11:22,987 --> 01:11:25,698
I don't want young people playing with it.
1549
01:11:25,740 --> 01:11:27,533
We don't know enough yet.
1550
01:11:27,575 --> 01:11:30,870
And I understand that, historically,
a lot of people have used kratom.
1551
01:11:30,912 --> 01:11:32,538
- [Chris] Yeah.
- I get it.
1552
01:11:32,580 --> 01:11:35,458
But the bottom line that gives me pause
over and over again,
1553
01:11:35,499 --> 01:11:38,586
is that we are faced now in the United States
1554
01:11:38,628 --> 01:11:41,965
with a staggering epidemic
1555
01:11:42,006 --> 01:11:44,592
- of opiate abuse and addiction.
- Yeah, huge.
1556
01:11:44,634 --> 01:11:46,302
I don't wanna add to that.
1557
01:11:46,343 --> 01:11:48,721
- I don't want more people introduced...
- Yeah.
1558
01:11:48,763 --> 01:11:51,557
- ...to addicting opiates.
- But Pharma is actually putting out stronger opiates.
1559
01:11:51,599 --> 01:11:53,184
Pharma is another story.
1560
01:11:53,226 --> 01:11:54,435
- Okay?
- That's the problem, right?
1561
01:11:54,477 --> 01:11:56,229
Well...
1562
01:11:56,271 --> 01:11:58,898
- [chuckling]
- That's another, you know...
1563
01:11:58,940 --> 01:12:00,608
- I can't fight that battle.
- Yeah.
1564
01:12:00,650 --> 01:12:03,820
[Mash] Do I think Pharma made mistakes?
Oh, yes, I do.
1565
01:12:03,861 --> 01:12:06,489
Do I think they're responsible for some of
what we're seeing today?
1566
01:12:06,530 --> 01:12:08,449
Yes, I do.
1567
01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:10,785
But we also know there's more heroin
on the streets than ever before.
1568
01:12:10,827 --> 01:12:12,620
- Right?
- [Chris] Yeah.
1569
01:12:12,662 --> 01:12:18,501
[Mash] Post 9/11, Afghanistan and
the opium runs poisoned Americans.
1570
01:12:18,542 --> 01:12:20,211
"Just bring those drugs in."
1571
01:12:20,253 --> 01:12:25,049
And what we need to do is we need to help
our brothers and sisters.
1572
01:12:25,091 --> 01:12:28,303
We need to look at it with a humanistic eye
1573
01:12:28,344 --> 01:12:32,098
to give people the opportunity to
kick the habit the best way we can.
1574
01:12:32,140 --> 01:12:33,975
And we've gotta be bold.
1575
01:12:34,017 --> 01:12:38,813
And maybe there's a place for kratom
under medical supervision,
1576
01:12:38,855 --> 01:12:40,898
- or in treatment centers...
- Mm-hmm.
1577
01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:44,694
...but, you know, without the money
to work that up,
1578
01:12:45,569 --> 01:12:47,030
it's not going to happen.
1579
01:12:47,071 --> 01:12:50,325
[Chris] In this country, every
time we have an epidemic,
1580
01:12:50,366 --> 01:12:53,786
we Stockton Slap it like the Diaz Brothers.
1581
01:12:53,828 --> 01:12:57,456
We weren't gonna let measles, mumps,
or rubella choke us out.
1582
01:12:57,498 --> 01:13:01,752
Smallpox, an Iron Mike Tyson KO in the first.
1583
01:13:01,794 --> 01:13:06,883
Like the Terminator, we decimated chicken pox
with extreme prejudice.
1584
01:13:06,924 --> 01:13:09,468
And when our president got polio,
1585
01:13:09,510 --> 01:13:13,264
we went all Ultimate Warrior
and press-slammed it.
1586
01:13:13,306 --> 01:13:15,599
In the '80s, they sang "We Are The World,"
1587
01:13:15,641 --> 01:13:17,643
and every continent banded together
1588
01:13:17,685 --> 01:13:20,230
and obliterated the AIDS epidemic.
1589
01:13:20,271 --> 01:13:24,234
Why aren't we doing the same
for the opioid epidemic?
1590
01:13:24,275 --> 01:13:28,279
But I called the DEA, the FDA, and the NIDA,
1591
01:13:28,321 --> 01:13:30,365
and they all said the same thing,
1592
01:13:30,406 --> 01:13:32,449
"We're not gonna talk to you."
1593
01:13:32,491 --> 01:13:35,411
So, it's time to take
matters into our own hands.
1594
01:13:35,452 --> 01:13:38,206
First, we're gonna need
some money for research.
1595
01:13:38,248 --> 01:13:40,791
[Chris] You know, Dr. McCurdy
was with us in England
1596
01:13:40,833 --> 01:13:42,752
and he came out with all this new research.
1597
01:13:42,793 --> 01:13:45,671
And he's saying, you know, the real thing
that we need is money for research.
1598
01:13:45,713 --> 01:13:47,798
And you've done really well with kratom.
1599
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:51,761
I just keep thinking like, "Man, if all
these other companies keep bombing out,
1600
01:13:51,802 --> 01:13:54,847
they're not testing our product, they're
not doing what they're supposed to do,
1601
01:13:54,889 --> 01:13:56,640
like, we can do it."
1602
01:13:56,682 --> 01:13:59,143
[Dunn] The other thing I like that
McCurdy's doing is he's developing
1603
01:13:59,185 --> 01:14:01,687
that quick and easy test for adulterants.
1604
01:14:01,729 --> 01:14:05,024
So if their people are not testing the
product, and the product is dirty,
1605
01:14:05,066 --> 01:14:06,984
he's got it. He's developing
that test for that as well.
1606
01:14:07,026 --> 01:14:10,321
So, when, like, when I did Prescription Thugs,
it was a different thing.
1607
01:14:10,363 --> 01:14:11,781
So I did Prescription Thugs,
1608
01:14:11,822 --> 01:14:13,783
I wanted to help people get off of opioids.
1609
01:14:13,824 --> 01:14:19,080
And I think that we achieved warning people
that opioids are dangerous.
1610
01:14:19,122 --> 01:14:22,499
But I wasn't able to really
get people off of 'em.
1611
01:14:22,541 --> 01:14:24,085
I wasn't able to help the problem.
1612
01:14:24,127 --> 01:14:26,212
And this is a step towards a solution.
1613
01:14:26,254 --> 01:14:28,005
I'd love to get involved, love to help.
1614
01:14:28,047 --> 01:14:31,801
We'll fund that first round
of research ourselves.
1615
01:14:31,842 --> 01:14:35,179
[Chris] Kelly agreed to get the ball rolling
on funding research.
1616
01:14:35,221 --> 01:14:37,181
So I got him to hop on a plane with me,
1617
01:14:37,223 --> 01:14:40,059
head to Florida, and catch
up with Dr. McCurdy.
1618
01:14:41,394 --> 01:14:43,313
[rock music playing]
1619
01:14:51,321 --> 01:14:54,198
And now, it was time to talk about
making a difference.
1620
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:56,409
[inaudible]
1621
01:14:56,451 --> 01:14:59,829
[Dunn] Pain, emotional pain
and physical trauma pain,
1622
01:14:59,870 --> 01:15:01,914
chemically, are the same inside the body.
1623
01:15:01,956 --> 01:15:04,541
If we know that, how come
we can't measure pain?
1624
01:15:04,583 --> 01:15:06,336
Well, pain is a subjective measurement.
1625
01:15:06,377 --> 01:15:09,046
Nobody can objectify pain
measurement right now
1626
01:15:09,088 --> 01:15:10,547
like you're asking, why can't we measure it?
1627
01:15:10,589 --> 01:15:12,342
It's the fifth vital sign now.
1628
01:15:12,383 --> 01:15:16,012
So, when you get checked
into an emergency room,
1629
01:15:16,053 --> 01:15:17,638
or you get checked into a hospital,
1630
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,183
they wanna check your blood pressure,
your weight,
1631
01:15:20,224 --> 01:15:22,393
you know, your temperature,
1632
01:15:22,435 --> 01:15:25,980
and then they ask you, "So, what's
your pain level on one to ten?"
1633
01:15:26,022 --> 01:15:30,234
There's no way to judge that other than
you telling me "a ten."
1634
01:15:30,276 --> 01:15:33,029
How can we get involved? How can we help
a lot of people?
1635
01:15:33,070 --> 01:15:35,072
And how do we bring this,
1636
01:15:35,114 --> 01:15:39,660
because we believe a lot in this plant and
the possibilities that it can provide.
1637
01:15:39,702 --> 01:15:42,788
We need to know where we stand
on abuse potential.
1638
01:15:42,830 --> 01:15:47,502
We need to know where we stand on the
limitations of, you know, how much can we give,
1639
01:15:47,543 --> 01:15:49,462
what doses do we need to be giving,
1640
01:15:49,504 --> 01:15:51,255
how do we need to be giving it?
1641
01:15:51,297 --> 01:15:53,883
If we can have a standardized material
1642
01:15:53,924 --> 01:15:58,637
that we know meets whatever the guidelines are
for that standardization,
1643
01:15:58,679 --> 01:16:01,349
and doesn't go above or below that,
1644
01:16:01,391 --> 01:16:03,184
so that every time you get that product,
1645
01:16:03,226 --> 01:16:06,396
you're getting exactly what you signed up for.
1646
01:16:06,437 --> 01:16:09,023
You know, you can look at
it in the spirits industry,
1647
01:16:09,065 --> 01:16:11,526
you can look at it in the tobacco industry.
1648
01:16:11,567 --> 01:16:16,197
If we eliminated all opioids from
the face of the earth tomorrow,
1649
01:16:16,239 --> 01:16:18,032
they'll find something else.
1650
01:16:18,074 --> 01:16:20,493
- Street chemists will make a new one. [laughs]
- To go after it, right?
1651
01:16:20,535 --> 01:16:23,287
So, I don't think it's gonna
be the end-all, be-all,
1652
01:16:23,329 --> 01:16:25,789
but I certainly think it's gonna be a solution
1653
01:16:25,831 --> 01:16:32,838
that will help people that are really
interested in getting off of opioids.
1654
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,716
Why I became a pharmacist was because I wanted
to help people.
1655
01:16:35,758 --> 01:16:39,053
Why I ended up becoming a researcher
1656
01:16:39,095 --> 01:16:42,932
was because, along the way, I fell in love
with the fact that we can make discoveries
1657
01:16:42,973 --> 01:16:44,600
that would impact far more people
1658
01:16:44,641 --> 01:16:47,978
than if I was just at your corner drug store.
1659
01:16:48,020 --> 01:16:52,900
If we make a really important discovery,
or we're able to be a part of
1660
01:16:52,942 --> 01:16:57,530
a big process that can affect, you know,
1661
01:16:57,572 --> 01:16:59,282
not just people on the corner,
1662
01:16:59,323 --> 01:17:02,910
- but people on every corner, right?
- Yes.
1663
01:17:02,952 --> 01:17:06,122
Not just in this country,
but across the continent,
1664
01:17:06,163 --> 01:17:08,249
across the globe.
1665
01:17:08,291 --> 01:17:11,544
I would love to see in my lifetime,
1666
01:17:11,586 --> 01:17:16,299
that we were able to contribute
in a huge, positive way
1667
01:17:16,340 --> 01:17:20,970
to opioid addiction, drug addiction,
in a bigger picture,
1668
01:17:21,011 --> 01:17:24,056
because I really think this is beyond
just opioid addiction.
1669
01:17:24,098 --> 01:17:26,809
We felt strongly enough about
it to file the patents,
1670
01:17:26,850 --> 01:17:32,356
originally, on treating essentially every drug
of abuse.
1671
01:17:32,398 --> 01:17:33,941
So, we got the team together.
1672
01:17:33,983 --> 01:17:36,360
- [laughs]
- Team's here. We can do it. We can do the work.
1673
01:17:36,402 --> 01:17:37,820
[Chris] This is exciting,
1674
01:17:37,861 --> 01:17:39,989
and the reason I make documentaries.
1675
01:17:40,030 --> 01:17:42,908
Dr. McCurdy has agreed to move forward
with his research
1676
01:17:42,950 --> 01:17:45,869
to the point of the first human
clinical trials with kratom.
1677
01:17:45,911 --> 01:17:48,623
And that can only happen if
we're all on the same page.
1678
01:17:48,664 --> 01:17:52,627
The DEA is soliciting public comment
about kratom through December 1st.
1679
01:17:52,668 --> 01:17:56,589
After that, it will decide whether it
will proceed with any kind of regulation,
1680
01:17:56,631 --> 01:17:58,215
permanent or temporary.
1681
01:17:58,257 --> 01:18:00,134
[Chris] Kratom advocates went to work
1682
01:18:00,176 --> 01:18:03,179
and sent over 5,000 comments to the DEA.
1683
01:18:03,220 --> 01:18:05,097
But as the deadline got closer,
1684
01:18:05,139 --> 01:18:06,516
I started getting nervous.
1685
01:18:06,557 --> 01:18:07,933
What if it wasn't enough?
1686
01:18:07,975 --> 01:18:09,935
What if they did really ban this plant
1687
01:18:09,977 --> 01:18:12,062
and make it a Schedule-I drug?
1688
01:18:12,104 --> 01:18:15,483
Then I got an idea, and I sent the text.
1689
01:18:15,525 --> 01:18:19,195
It has these properties that
help people bridge the gap
1690
01:18:19,236 --> 01:18:20,946
when they get off of opioids,
1691
01:18:20,988 --> 01:18:22,532
so they don't have withdrawals.
1692
01:18:22,573 --> 01:18:25,909
It seems like this is a drug, or a plant,
I should say,
1693
01:18:25,951 --> 01:18:29,664
that just does not have enough... There's not
enough data.
1694
01:18:29,705 --> 01:18:31,290
- There's not enough research.
- Not enough research.
1695
01:18:31,332 --> 01:18:34,126
The vet I was talking about,
he can't live without kratom.
1696
01:18:34,168 --> 01:18:36,003
What are we gonna do, take it away from him?
1697
01:18:36,045 --> 01:18:38,381
- [Rogan] Yeah.
- Like, where is he gonna go? Back on opioids?
1698
01:18:38,422 --> 01:18:40,675
- To the VA hospital? Like, it's...
- [Rogan exhales sharply]
1699
01:18:40,716 --> 01:18:42,426
[Rogan] Fuck.
1700
01:18:42,468 --> 01:18:45,596
What a weird situation. So,
we really need you, Chris.
1701
01:18:45,638 --> 01:18:48,724
- [both chuckle]
- This documentary is actually important.
1702
01:18:48,765 --> 01:18:50,726
The one way we can keep this legal
1703
01:18:50,767 --> 01:18:52,687
and keep other things legal as well,
1704
01:18:52,728 --> 01:18:55,690
is everybody needs to go to a
website that the DEA has set up.
1705
01:18:55,731 --> 01:18:58,192
It's called kratomcomments.org
1706
01:18:58,234 --> 01:18:59,985
And if you make a comment by December 1st,
1707
01:19:00,027 --> 01:19:02,238
the DEA has to read it.
1708
01:19:02,279 --> 01:19:03,947
And your show is so powerful,
1709
01:19:03,989 --> 01:19:07,702
if we can get 10,000 comments,
then this is gonna stay legal.
1710
01:19:07,743 --> 01:19:09,704
New At Noon, a massive public outcry
1711
01:19:09,745 --> 01:19:11,330
has the Feds doing an about-face
1712
01:19:11,372 --> 01:19:14,750
on a controversial herbal supplement
known as kratom.
1713
01:19:14,791 --> 01:19:17,086
The agency was flooded with
thousands of angry calls.
1714
01:19:17,127 --> 01:19:19,547
DEA has backed off.
1715
01:19:19,589 --> 01:19:23,217
[man] After 23,000 public comments
submitted to the DEA...
1716
01:19:23,259 --> 01:19:30,558
99.1% of the comments said, "Fuck off.
This is good."
1717
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,394
[Chris] And for now, kratom was saved.
1718
01:19:33,436 --> 01:19:36,188
A spokesperson for the
DEA told me on the phone
1719
01:19:36,230 --> 01:19:39,233
that the response was overwhelming.
1720
01:19:39,275 --> 01:19:43,237
They had never seen such a positive outpouring
from consumers.
1721
01:19:43,279 --> 01:19:45,406
There were a few comments against kratom,
1722
01:19:45,448 --> 01:19:49,076
one in particular from Dr. Daniel Fabricant,
1723
01:19:49,118 --> 01:19:51,579
who also blocked me on Twitter.
1724
01:19:51,621 --> 01:19:53,414
So, there was a drug called flakka.
1725
01:19:53,456 --> 01:19:55,124
- Have you heard of flakka?
- [Rogan] No.
1726
01:19:55,165 --> 01:19:58,544
[reporter] Your body temperature
rising to 105, 108 degrees.
1727
01:19:58,586 --> 01:20:03,006
That's why this person had his family
dump water on him.
1728
01:20:03,048 --> 01:20:05,676
- [Rogan] Whoa.
- [Chris] So, I think kratom gets lumped in
1729
01:20:05,718 --> 01:20:09,388
with these synthetic drugs like
Spice and flakka, that are...
1730
01:20:09,430 --> 01:20:11,348
Watch, this guy jumps
into the back of the car.
1731
01:20:11,390 --> 01:20:15,060
What the fuck? This is someone on flakka?
Holy shit.
1732
01:20:15,102 --> 01:20:16,771
[reporter] We see in here, paranoia...
1733
01:20:16,812 --> 01:20:20,190
- [yelling indistinctly]
- [man] Relax. Relax.
1734
01:20:20,775 --> 01:20:22,109
[screaming]
1735
01:20:22,151 --> 01:20:24,111
[Rogan] Oh, my God.
1736
01:20:24,153 --> 01:20:27,573
I think it was a drug that they were
selling in head shops down in Florida,
1737
01:20:27,615 --> 01:20:30,618
and it got banned within, like,
I don't know, couple of months
1738
01:20:30,660 --> 01:20:33,829
- Of it being...
- Always fucking Florida.
1739
01:20:33,870 --> 01:20:35,831
- It's always Florida.
- Goddamn, Florida.
1740
01:20:35,872 --> 01:20:38,250
The gateway to demonic possession.
1741
01:20:38,292 --> 01:20:41,462
[Chris] If there were ever an
epicenter of addiction in America,
1742
01:20:41,504 --> 01:20:43,339
it'd be Broward County.
1743
01:20:43,380 --> 01:20:45,174
At the peak of the pill mill days,
1744
01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:47,426
there were 89 of them there.
1745
01:20:47,468 --> 01:20:50,346
Last year, 159 people died there,
1746
01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:53,516
and plenty of people are more than happy
to get you sober
1747
01:20:53,557 --> 01:20:55,267
for a price.
1748
01:20:55,309 --> 01:20:58,771
This dude charged insurance companies
$58 million
1749
01:20:58,813 --> 01:21:02,065
for drug tests that were
completely unnecessary.
1750
01:21:02,107 --> 01:21:04,819
All in Florida, all the time.
1751
01:21:04,901 --> 01:21:07,571
Ian Mautner was on three antidepressants,
1752
01:21:07,613 --> 01:21:10,449
that were... They all had a
black box of warning on them.
1753
01:21:10,491 --> 01:21:12,117
"This may cause suicidal thoughts
1754
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:14,328
in young people and adolescents."
1755
01:21:14,370 --> 01:21:16,038
And, you know, that's something that's like,
1756
01:21:16,079 --> 01:21:18,165
now you get to say, "Well,
he died from kratom."
1757
01:21:18,207 --> 01:21:20,959
You know, I don't think that's fair.
1758
01:21:21,001 --> 01:21:23,420
Well, I'm not gonna discuss that one case.
1759
01:21:23,462 --> 01:21:26,215
I know what the state's leading epidemiologist
will tell you.
1760
01:21:26,256 --> 01:21:28,217
- I believe you guys are gonna interview him?
- Sure.
1761
01:21:28,258 --> 01:21:32,137
I know what Dr. Mash, who studied it down
in the University of Miami
1762
01:21:32,179 --> 01:21:34,014
will tell you, and what her white paper says.
1763
01:21:34,056 --> 01:21:35,516
Let's regulate it.
1764
01:21:35,558 --> 01:21:38,935
If there's a benefit to it,
let NIDA work through this.
1765
01:21:38,977 --> 01:21:40,937
There are companies, there's three companies
out there
1766
01:21:40,979 --> 01:21:43,607
that actually do it legally,
like as a supplement,
1767
01:21:43,649 --> 01:21:46,527
and they don't label it as
"Not for human consumption."
1768
01:21:46,569 --> 01:21:48,445
Most of the companies do.
1769
01:21:48,487 --> 01:21:50,322
And I think that that's a bad thing. I think
they need to get rid of that.
1770
01:21:50,364 --> 01:21:52,408
- They need to...
- And how would you propose they get rid of that?
1771
01:21:52,449 --> 01:21:55,411
Do GMP, just run it exactly like
the supplement companies run it.
1772
01:21:55,452 --> 01:21:58,080
They test everything when it comes in,
and they test it before it goes out,
1773
01:21:58,121 --> 01:22:01,751
and they know that what it says on the label
is exactly what's in it.
1774
01:22:01,792 --> 01:22:03,419
- I think they definitely...
- Well, I wish you luck.
1775
01:22:03,460 --> 01:22:05,295
- Thank you.
- I know
1776
01:22:05,337 --> 01:22:08,090
that it's a hard thing to have an addiction
and to have to get over it.
1777
01:22:08,131 --> 01:22:09,717
- Yeah.
- And I understand
1778
01:22:09,759 --> 01:22:12,469
the fear of anybody that
wants to take it away.
1779
01:22:12,511 --> 01:22:14,137
You've seen that throughout the country.
1780
01:22:14,179 --> 01:22:17,641
The voices that are addicted to one drug
swing over,
1781
01:22:17,683 --> 01:22:20,895
and, in my opinion, are addicted to kratom and
don't want it to go away.
1782
01:22:20,936 --> 01:22:22,688
It was never a problem before.
1783
01:22:22,730 --> 01:22:25,274
It's banned in its country
of origin for over 42 years.
1784
01:22:25,315 --> 01:22:26,567
Do you know why?
1785
01:22:26,609 --> 01:22:28,527
Because it was cutting into the heroin trade.
1786
01:22:28,569 --> 01:22:31,280
[scoffs] They weren't making enough money
off of their drugs,
1787
01:22:31,321 --> 01:22:35,033
- So they had to cut down kratom.
- Oh, that's such a freakin' ridiculous soundbite.
1788
01:22:35,075 --> 01:22:38,454
[Chris] Kristin Jacobs couldn't seem to get
any of her bills passed
1789
01:22:38,495 --> 01:22:40,664
or garner any support.
1790
01:22:40,706 --> 01:22:42,332
It's getting completely slandered,
1791
01:22:42,374 --> 01:22:45,001
people are putting it with
bath salts and spice,
1792
01:22:45,043 --> 01:22:47,254
which is crazy.
1793
01:22:47,296 --> 01:22:49,840
Everything in this package
upon this ordinance,
1794
01:22:49,882 --> 01:22:51,007
it's all negative.
1795
01:22:51,049 --> 01:22:52,843
It's not balanced, it's not broad,
1796
01:22:53,677 --> 01:22:55,387
it's inexcusable.
1797
01:22:55,429 --> 01:22:57,264
There are people that are hurting out there,
1798
01:22:57,306 --> 01:23:00,016
and you wanna ban this stuff
and put them in jail.
1799
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,645
I know, Commissioner Jacobs,
this is your last meeting.
1800
01:23:02,686 --> 01:23:05,314
And I would like nothing more
than to vote for something
1801
01:23:05,355 --> 01:23:07,316
that you brought in your last meeting,
1802
01:23:07,357 --> 01:23:09,067
but I'm not yet ready to vote on this.
1803
01:23:09,109 --> 01:23:11,654
You are dealing with those who are addicted,
1804
01:23:11,695 --> 01:23:14,448
and you're sitting there, listening to
all those maybe addicts in the room
1805
01:23:14,490 --> 01:23:15,783
saying that they're not addicted,
1806
01:23:15,825 --> 01:23:17,576
and you're hearing others up here,
1807
01:23:17,618 --> 01:23:19,077
out of a lack of knowledge,
1808
01:23:19,119 --> 01:23:21,580
and indeed, even our own medical examiner,
1809
01:23:21,622 --> 01:23:24,333
who doesn't exactly deal with live people...
1810
01:23:24,374 --> 01:23:26,585
[Chris] I guess it's not
the voice of addiction,
1811
01:23:26,627 --> 01:23:28,253
it's just the voice of reason.
1812
01:23:28,295 --> 01:23:31,298
And it came down pretty
hard on Kristin Jacobs.
1813
01:23:31,340 --> 01:23:33,091
All of her bills got shot down,
1814
01:23:33,133 --> 01:23:35,678
but she still keeps trying.
1815
01:23:35,719 --> 01:23:38,973
After the hearing, the Florida State
Law Enforcement Bureau
1816
01:23:39,014 --> 01:23:41,224
conducted their own investigation
1817
01:23:41,266 --> 01:23:43,268
and came out with this statement.
1818
01:23:43,310 --> 01:23:45,646
"A review of the information
currently available
1819
01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:49,441
through identified law enforcement
and laboratory sources in Florida
1820
01:23:49,483 --> 01:23:53,779
indicates that kratom does not
constitute a significant risk
1821
01:23:53,821 --> 01:23:57,491
to the safety and welfare
of Florida residents."
1822
01:23:57,533 --> 01:23:59,368
In the case of Ian Mautner,
1823
01:23:59,409 --> 01:24:01,077
Florida State Law Enforcement
1824
01:24:01,119 --> 01:24:03,413
said the presence of other
controlled substances
1825
01:24:03,455 --> 01:24:06,124
may have contributed to the
subject's state of mind
1826
01:24:06,166 --> 01:24:08,669
at the time of the suicide.
1827
01:24:08,711 --> 01:24:11,171
I wanna live in a world that is pain-free,
1828
01:24:11,213 --> 01:24:13,674
addiction-free, and judgment-free.
1829
01:24:13,716 --> 01:24:16,343
I wanna reverse this pain epidemic.
1830
01:24:16,385 --> 01:24:18,762
Being out of pain is a basic human right.
1831
01:24:18,804 --> 01:24:20,639
So, if someone is stuck in pain,
1832
01:24:20,681 --> 01:24:22,182
or stuck in addiction,
1833
01:24:22,224 --> 01:24:23,893
we need to have the compassion
1834
01:24:23,934 --> 01:24:26,896
to reach out and pull them out of it.
1835
01:24:26,937 --> 01:24:30,065
I'll do everything I can to help further
the research on kratom
1836
01:24:30,106 --> 01:24:32,401
and other effective non-addictive painkillers.
1837
01:24:32,442 --> 01:24:34,361
But I do think it's kind of ironic
1838
01:24:34,403 --> 01:24:36,112
that we have to do all these studies
1839
01:24:36,154 --> 01:24:39,324
for something that's been used safely
for hundreds of years.
1840
01:24:39,366 --> 01:24:40,743
In the past decade,
1841
01:24:40,784 --> 01:24:44,413
under the watchful eyes
of the FDA and the DEA,
1842
01:24:44,454 --> 01:24:47,917
with all their hundreds of clinical
trials, studies, and warnings,
1843
01:24:47,958 --> 01:24:50,711
and all the programs to keep kids off drugs,
1844
01:24:50,753 --> 01:24:54,715
over 200,000 Americans have
died from opioid painkillers,
1845
01:24:54,757 --> 01:24:57,885
a lot of people I really loved.
1846
01:24:57,927 --> 01:24:59,762
So much for your war on drugs.
1847
01:24:59,803 --> 01:25:02,389
The opioid crisis is an emergency,
1848
01:25:02,431 --> 01:25:05,851
and I'm saying officially,
right now, it is an emergency.
1849
01:25:05,893 --> 01:25:07,895
It's a national emergency.
1850
01:25:07,937 --> 01:25:10,105
We're going to spend a lot
of time, a lot of effort,
1851
01:25:10,146 --> 01:25:14,109
and a lot of money on the opioid crisis.
1852
01:25:14,150 --> 01:25:17,279
[Chris] Kratom may not be the only hope
for this opioid crisis,
1853
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:19,114
but it's certainly one of them.
1854
01:25:19,155 --> 01:25:22,492
So before we turn our backs on
something that God gave us,
1855
01:25:22,534 --> 01:25:25,621
maybe we all just need
to take a leaf of faith.
1856
01:25:44,389 --> 01:25:48,936
[man] Um, ask, "So, when you did the studies,
were there any side effects with the rats?"
1857
01:25:48,978 --> 01:25:51,647
So, when you did the side effects, were there
any studies with...
1858
01:25:51,688 --> 01:25:53,023
- Were there...
- [men laughing]
1859
01:25:53,065 --> 01:25:54,441
- [man] This is...
- Side effects.
1860
01:25:54,483 --> 01:25:56,110
- [man] This is gonna make the blooper reel.
- Yeah.
1861
01:25:56,192 --> 01:25:57,945
[all laugh]
1862
01:25:57,987 --> 01:26:00,948
So, right over here, this house,
this is the guy I was talking about.
1863
01:26:01,615 --> 01:26:02,866
With the gay feet.
1864
01:26:02,908 --> 01:26:05,077
[man] Ah, was it really bad?
1865
01:26:05,119 --> 01:26:06,662
[Chris] I'm just kidding. I'm trying to point
shit out, so it looks like we're talking.
1866
01:26:07,704 --> 01:26:09,164
[Chris] Oh, if you die at my house...
1867
01:26:09,205 --> 01:26:12,626
Um, you signed a waiver, right?
[laughing]
1868
01:26:12,668 --> 01:26:14,419
- I haven't signed a waiver yet.
- [Chris] Ah, shit.
1869
01:26:15,129 --> 01:26:16,463
[groaning]
1870
01:26:16,505 --> 01:26:17,714
[Chris] You should talk about smoking, buddy.
1871
01:26:17,756 --> 01:26:19,215
I still smoke. I still have bad habits.
1872
01:26:19,257 --> 01:26:20,717
No, no, no. I don't wanna
talk about that.
1873
01:26:20,759 --> 01:26:22,761
- No?
- No.
1874
01:26:22,803 --> 01:26:24,096
[whispers] My mother thinks I quit.
1875
01:26:24,138 --> 01:26:25,722
Oh, your mother thinks...
1876
01:26:25,764 --> 01:26:27,307
- [woman] Let's see the dance moves.
- [man] Yeah, yeah.
1877
01:26:27,349 --> 01:26:29,559
No, no. I'm shy.
1878
01:26:29,601 --> 01:26:30,602
Okay.
1879
01:26:30,644 --> 01:26:31,687
[whoops]